Fake crest on Argentine 1891 rifle

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nagamitsu	Fake crest on Argentine 1891 rifle	Lead	[-]
Posts: 26 (10/13/07 07:38 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None At the show today, I saw a nice VG Argentine 1891 rifle, , tiger striped stock, with crest. A very close examination revealed that a fake crest had been applied over the ground one. The entire crest was applied in a layer, with a raised edge around it, and some holes could be seen in the crest itself, showing the ground area underneath. This was very well done, I think it was in some sort of casting resin, the detail was very good except were the open areas were. There were some areas that looked slightly rusty, like they needed to be cleaned up- I think this was done on purpose to distract from the rest of the crest. Watch out! Last Edited By: nagamitsu 10/14/07 12:54 AM. Edited 1 time.
nagamitsu		#1	[-]
Posts: 27 (10/14/07 12:54 AM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The fake crest was NOT an Argentine crest, it was a large five pointed star, I am not sure what country, just that it was applied over a ground Argentine receiver.
nothernug		#2	[-]
Posts: 10251 (10/14/07 10:17 AM) Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	But what would be the point, value, in putting a faked, non Argentine crest on the rifle??? Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
nagamitsu		#3	[-]
Posts: 28 (10/14/07 11:26 AM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	That was exactly my question, and the question of the dealer, who after close examination agreed with my conclusion that it was an applied fake. Perhaps there is a rare variant of the 1891 rifle? I am not sure, but crest seemed like it may have been another south American country- Does Brazil use a star?
nagamitsu		#4	[-]
Posts: 29 (10/14/07 11:39 AM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	looked up the Brazilian crest- yes, it was an applied Brazilian crest- Did Brazil use the '91? Is it rare?
ncisland11		#5	[-]
Posts: 17 (10/16/07 03:42 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Don't hold me to this, but I thought I read something about Argentina selling off some of their 1891 rifles to surrounding countries back then, they were quiet about it because they were heading some sort of delegation on peace talks, but selling rifles to both sides of the conflict. So it may be the government that did the artwork?
beanstrung		#6	[-]
Posts: 3747 (10/16/07 09:37 PM) Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Argentina sold some 91's to Peru, but I'm not aware of any being sold to Brazil... mman92 or DocAV, any thoughts? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand? Joel 3:9-10
Doc AV	Fake Brazil/Arg M91	#7	[-]
Posts: 2154 (10/24/07 12:55 AM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Whilst Brazil MAY have aquired some M91s from Loewe for trials etc, they would NOT have had the "Star" shaped Brazilian crest, as it appears on the M94 and Later Brazilian Military Contract guns. Does the Rifle concerned fit in with the normal Argentine M91 serialing and assembly features?...then it is an Argy, probably one of those with the ground crest as required for Surplussing up to the late 1960s. Question, why fake a gun that probably never existed??? Or is our faker so dumb he can't distinguish between an Argentine, a Peruvuan or a Brazilian crest???. And why fake it with casting resin??? If I were to "fake" a crest, I would clean back the metal, and then get a professional Engraver to cut (or re-cut) the required crest, copying from an original crest. If you are going to do a job (even a fraudulent one) at least "Do it right"... Any comments? regards, Doc AV AV Ballistics.
nothernug		#8	[-]
Posts: 10295 (10/24/07 01:53 AM) Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I just don't see it paying off. Such stamp tools ain't anything like cheap to make! And there's just not that kind of money in these rifles. Heck! You'd probably do better faking an Argy crest back onto on these! And, as suggested, applying one as described doesn't make any sense either. I can't help but think somebody smart enough to convincingly fake markings is likely smart enough to know which ones people will pay for. Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
beanstrung		#9	[-]
Posts: 3784 (10/24/07 06:08 AM) Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Never underestimate Bubba...! also, "Never attribute to Malice, that which is adequately explained by Stupidity" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand? Joel 3:9-10
ADCC		#10	[-]
Posts: 112 (10/24/07 12:18 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	What about Spain, Colombia or Bolivia? According to R. Ball's book, those 3 countries got 1891s (Apparently Spain only got a few 1890 models for trials) and probably the crest of this rifle is one of those. Maybe a private owner of one of these rifles decided to engrave a different crest....many odd things happened with those military rifles over here.
Crazy Ivan		#11	[-]
Posts: 6 (10/26/07 11:18 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I saw this rifle at the gunshow too, and it was indeed a Brazilian crest. In fact it seemed to be an exact duplicate of the crest on the 1908 Brazilian Mauser. That made me wary as the early Brazilian crest looked different than the 1908 one, true? I didn't detect that it was resin, but since my eyes are not what they used to be that doesn't surprise me too much. But I could tell the bluing was a bit discolored and not as polished around the crest. The same guys had some other rifles that are not that commonly seen, such as a Dutch carbine, so it did give the impression it could be from an old collection. It just didn't add up though so I passed on it. Other than the crest it appeared to be the standard, unissued, matching M1891 that you see around from time to time. F series as I remember, with all of the normal Argentine inspection stamps (including the buttstock one with the Argentine crest). And a nicely striped stock with only a few compression marks. If it was cheaper and didn't have the Brazilian crest I would have snagged it. Why did someone do this? I don't have the foggiest idea. As practice for faking something they really can get some big bucks for, or maybe just to see what reaction they got from people (if so, they probably got a good laugh from me checking it out several times....)? I don't know, but I wish they had done it to a rifle that wasn't quite so nice to begin with. A real shame in my book. (Oops, spelling corrected 11/18 ) Last Edited By: Crazy Ivan 11/18/07 11:54 PM. Edited 1 times.
cello1988		#12	[-]
Posts: 1 (11/16/07 12:44 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This is a Bolivian M91. Bolivia and Peru purchased a number of M91 rifles from Argentina. The Argentine crest was removed and new crests were applied. The Bolivian crest contains stars, the Peruvian does not. These are collectable variations and highly desirable, and very difficult to find, in very good + condition. Spain also purchased a number of M91 rifles, but these were purchased before the Argentine crest had been applied to the receiver. Spanish trial rifles never had a crest on the receiver, not even a Spaniard one. Last Edited By: cello1988 11/16/07 12:47 AM. Edited 2 times.
ADCC		#13	[-]
Posts: 117 (11/16/07 12:43 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Another way to note a difference between an Argentinian 1891 and other contracts (Spain, Bolivia, Peru and Colombia) if you're not 100% sure about the crest (They were rather small, lightly stamped and currently not always in the best condition; also lettering is usually faded, covered with dirt, grease or rust and in Spanish) is to check the rear sight. Almost all Argentinian '91s sights were altered to use the Spitzer bullet so the flip-up 350-meter leaf and knob were removed living only the 250-meter fixed leaf. Also the single-latch slide sight was replaced by a dual latch one. This alteration is unseen in all original Peruvian '91s and only those that went trough the 1912 conversion that replaced the original sight for a Lange sight (Rebarreleld with SJG tubes, reblued and fitted with new handguards) were intended to use the "new" Spitzer pointed ammo. From the few pictures I've seen of Columbian, Bolivian and Spanish 1891s the same is applied to those. The only Argentinian 1891 I've seen in non-altered condition is the one depicted in Mr. Ball's book as a labeled gift from the Argentinian State to the US, probably made before the arsenal modification. Spanish Mauser 1891 (Trial rifle?) rear sight, same as Peruvian 1891 (I have 2 with original sights just like this) and probably Bolivia and Colombia: http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/Pictures/mau_0435-11.JPG http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/Pictures/mau_0435-03.JPG http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/Pictures/mau_0435-16.JPG Argentinian Mauser 1891; check the rear sight's featured I described above: http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/084577000/84577466/pix654191937.jpg http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/085160000/85160873/pix1283219546.jpg
nagamitsu		#14	[-]
Posts: 32 (11/17/07 10:14 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The crest was Brazilian-like on the 1935 rifles - and applied not as a stamping into the metal but as an overlay. Imagine a crest on a piece of tape-cut around it with scissors as close as you can-now stick it on the receiver- get the picture? It was not tape , but some kind of resin.-weird.
Crazy Ivan		#15	[-]
Posts: 7 (11/19/07 12:01 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This was at the Puyallup show, right? What I saw was not a 2D image pasted on the receiver, but a crest that was impressed somehow into the receiver ring. I very much believe that it could have been resin on top of where the crest used to be though. Either way, it was a Brazilian crest, no doubt. It was NOT a Bolivian crest. I even checked it against "Mauser Military Rifles of the World" while I was at the show to make triple sure on the crest.
eagle7		#16	[-]
Posts: 3224 (11/22/07 04:17 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Argentina furnished some Argentine crested 1891 Mausers to Paraguay during the Gran Chaco War. Some of these guns were captured by Bolivia, which embarassed Argentina diplomatically. Argentina was supposedly neutral in this conflict, but covertly supported Paraguay in the hope that Argentine businessmen would be able to exploit the supposed oil fields in the Gran Chaco if Paraguay won. This political embarassment may have been the reason why M91 rifles were later scrubbed before exported overseas.
ADCC		#17	[-]
Posts: 119 (11/22/07 05:55 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Coincidentally I saw today (And for the 1st. time outside a museum) an Argentinian 1891 with the Argentinian crest instead of the usual Peruvian crest of the local Army contract rifles. The only "easy" way such rifle has arrived here should have been by smuggling trough the Bolivian border and it should be one of those captured during the Chaco war since it had the original flip-up 2 position rear sight and the single-button aperture elevator instead of the modified rear sight for using the Spitzer ammo. Sadly it has been reblued, the barrel was wasted due to corrosive ammo, the wood was heavily sanded to eliminate dents and was missing the front sight & barrel band; other than that it was an all-matching "T" series but had to let it go.....no place in my wall for hangers, only in my safe for shooters.