Bearer of Bad News? Enfield Identification (Pic Heavy)

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GoldenK31	Bearer of Bad News? Enfield Identification (Pic Heavy)	Lead	[-]
Posts: 1 (05/01/08 12:26 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None I offered to help a neighbor track down a little information on an Enfield in his possession. Based on a conversation he mentioned it was used by his uncle in WWII. I think I may disappoint him as I try to research his rifle. Anyone have an info on the rifle? Any help is appreciated. Some pics... Number on bolt matches serial number CEW C.E. Welstead UK??? http://home.earthlink.net/~smithkaia8/id3.html Looks like an import mark to me...bummer
jrmc75		#1	[-]
Posts: 528 (05/01/08 12:40 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Looks like a pretty normal imported No4 to me. Manufactured by ROF Maltby, late-ish Canadian backsight, typical subcontractor marks on small parts. Imported by Century some time after 1968.
TheGreenMan13		#2	[-]
Posts: 43 (05/02/08 01:19 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	No info on the rifle but a similar story. My mother has a Mk. II Ross rifle that I was always told was my Great Grandfathers in WWI. Unfortunately after doing some research I found there was no way that the rifle was his, him being in the US Army and all. Though it might have been something he picked up along the way, or he could have gotten it as an import. No way to tell. But it was his rifle that he used for many years hunting deer. So it has all the history I need.
temperflash		#3	[-]
Posts: 112 (05/02/08 10:45 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Often the story can get garbled in the listening as well as in the telling. A fellow might show off a newly aquired surpluis rifle of the same type as the one he carried in the military and say "I used the (fill in Enfield, Garand, etc.) in WW2" meaning the type of rifle rather than the particular example he's showing. Also the use of non US rifles as training rifles can sometimes confuse the issue. My Neighbor carried an M1Carbine for most of his combat service but told me he had been issued a British Enfield in training and actually never got his hands on a US issue rifle till he was shipped out, they got what training they had on the Various US rifles on board ship on the way to North Africa. PS Apparently National Guard armories were well stocked with surplus No.4 Enfields after WW2. I suspect that by wars end stateside production exceeded the merchant marine's ability to ship the guns to the intended customers.
GoldenK31		#4	[-]
Posts: 2 (05/02/08 01:41 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Yep, I think there is definitely some confusion. The story related to me is that his uncle was a SeaBee in the Pacific and that as a boy he remembers having his uncle show him the rifle with the story that it was his service rifle. I found it strange that a SeaBee would be using a rifle in .303 but stranger things have happened during war time. I suspect that his uncle did have another rifle and that this one got passed to my neighbor after his uncle's death (his uncle bequeathed his service rifle to him). With the Century Arms import mark (believe these started in 1968?) it can't be the rifle...my neighbor is a Vietnam vet and would not have been a "boy" after 1968. Maybe a relative ended up with a 1903 or perhaps a 1917 (since Enfield is in mind) and substituted the SMLE in its place. I just hate to break the news to him.
jrmc75		#5	[-]
Posts: 531 (05/02/08 02:50 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	There are certainly a great many ways that a story can get mixed up. For several years my grandmother told me that she'd be sending me the Broomhandle Mauser that my grandfather took from a German officer at Belleau Wood in 1918. Come to find out, he'd traded it away during the depression to get a Christmas present for my dad. I ended up with letters and papers, all the provenance you'd ever want...just no pistol. You neighbor should look on the bright side...he's got what looks like a very nice example of arguably the best bolt action battle rifle ever made.
Ray Newman		#6	[-]
Posts: 326 (05/02/08 02:53 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I just wonder exactly which "Enfield" they were referring to? There is a great deal of confusion between the Pattern 14 & the US Rifle Model 1917 (M1917). The M1917 was placed in war reserve status after WW I. Prior to WW II, great quantities were shipped to the Philippines. During early WW II the M1917 was used a training rifle & secondary line use, as was the M1917 revolver. If you read C. S. Ferris' "The United States Rifle Model of 1917", it becomes apparent that "Enfield" & "Enfield Rifle" were often utilized -- even in US Army & War Dep't. documents -- to identify the M1917 rifle. How many times have we heard the M1917 identified as the "Enfield"? "Apparently National Guard armories were well stocked with surplus No.4 Enfields after WW2. " --TemperFlash Do you have a source for that info?
rgl3945		#7	[-]
Posts: 63 (05/02/08 07:48 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Remember no military surplus imports were allowed from 1968 to 1985/86. With a very very few exceptions for police use, eg. Garands or carbines. Almost all pre-69 imports just say "ENGLAND" since there has been the requirement to mark the country of origin of pretty much everything imported for many years before 68. This rifle has probably been in the US for less than 20 years. The CCM mark is for Canada Cycle and Motor (who make hockey equipment now), probably put in at the same time as the rear sight. I actually like the looks of the rifle, seems it has a lot of the original blue left.
The Capistrano Kid		#8	[-]
Posts: 53 (05/02/08 08:03 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hey Green Man, I seem to recall that some Ross Rifles did come South of the border and were used as training rifles by our military, but buy the rifle, not the story.
GoldenK31		#9	[-]
Posts: 3 (05/08/08 06:23 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I just want to say thanks to all that responded to this thread. As a Garand and K31 guy, SMLE's are all new to me and your information was very helpful. I still have to have the conversation with my neighbor (not looking forward to passing on the bad news) once he is back in town. Thanks again!
thumperpaul		#10	[-]
Posts: 31 (06/06/08 07:35 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Either way, it looks like it has seen some use in wartime. I notice that the finish on the muzzle looks like it has been scored by the bayonet being fitted and removed, as well as the weathered appearance of the furniture. It was definetely carried by SOMEBODY in combat....
timberlord		#11	[-]
Posts: 332 (06/13/08 09:46 AM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	TheGreenMan13 wrote: No info on the rifle but a similar story. My mother has a Mk. II Ross rifle that I was always told was my Great Grandfathers in WWI. Unfortunately after doing some research I found there was no way that the rifle was his, him being in the US Army and all. Though it might have been something he picked up along the way, or he could have gotten it as an import. No way to tell. But it was his rifle that he used for many years hunting deer. So it has all the history I need. There were a good number of Ross rifles issued to the US Ross bayo both Canadian and US stamps
Mad 4 Mausers		#12	[-]
Posts: 629 (06/21/08 06:49 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This model number business is a bit confusing. Which models were used at Gallipoli and Dunkirk? It was probably true that the Turks and Germans wound up with thousands of these rifles, but I've never discovered anything about their putting them to use, preferring, I suppose, their Mausers. The Turks were real scroungers when it came to building their arsenals, and it surely would have been they to include Enfields, unless there was negative evaluation that prevented it. Perhaps there is some history on this ??
Mad 4 Mausers		#13	[-]
Posts: 630 (06/21/08 08:21 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Discovered a site that mentions the use of Enfields by the Turks: http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:CSvYY9y07wMJ:www.turkmauser.com/Enfield/+turk+enfields&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&ie=UTF-8 Apparently, they converted them to 8MM in order to improve the ballistics and achieve ammunition commonality. This converted rifle is pretty rare.
temperflash		#14	[-]
Posts: 122 (06/21/08 09:07 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	"Apparently National Guard armories were well stocked with surplus No.4 Enfields after WW2. " --TemperFlash Do you have a source for that info? British .303 Enfields were used by American WW2 Veterans in a famous clash with crooked police over an election in a small county in Tennessee. The rifles were seized from the local National Guard armory when the Veterans, who'd started their own political party found them selves outgunned by the deputized thugs of the local political machine. The Thugs had gunned down a black veteran at the polls and seized the ballot boxes. A dramatized film version of the story came out in 92. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103673/ I read a more accurate story of the incident after seeing the film, and the .303 Enfields were prominately mentioned. There were a few US issue rifles at the armory but little or no ammo for them. The Enfields and their ammo were apparently not locked up as securely. The Vets pinned down the deputies in the courthouse and finally dynamited the place, after which the deputies and their boss surrendered. Short of firearms and ammunition, the GIs scoured the county to find them. By borrowing keys to the National Guard and State Guard Armories, they got three M-1 rifles, five .45 semi-automatic pistols, and 24 British Enfield rifles. The armories were nearly empty after the war's end. http://www.constitution.org/mil/tn/batathen.htm Several WW2 Vets I've spoken with have said they were trained using the British Enfield, one mentioned that he was trained at Fort Dix early in the War. As usual when a large army is built up on short notice the supply of standard issue rifles seldom meets demands. Before WW2 the US had one of the smallest and least well equiped armies of any nation our size. PS Ever seen the films of prewar manuvers where troops used 2X4s to stand in for machineguns, and trucks with "TANK" painted on the sides to stand in for armor? Last Edited By: temperflash 06/21/08 09:13 PM. Edited 2 times.