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beanstrung |
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Another myth busted by the rat of brass!
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What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand? Joel 3:9-10 |
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Cabinetman |
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Now that is interesting for sure! I didn't think of the cordite interfereing with the insertion of the bullet. But, this battlefield historian swore
it was accurate. Now I'm going to have to check that for myself.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.
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akitaholic |
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"The commentator even held up a .303 round showing just how it was done. "
Meaning he held up a round with the bullet reversed, or demonstrated how it was pulled and reinserted? I know i can't pull or seat bullets with my fingers, and I doubt that the historian can either. Sometimes "authorities" ain't. 'holic |
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brass rat |
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I have no doubt that the bullet could be pounded into the case but how far down would you have to seat it in order to not be jammed into the lands of the bore.
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Why not join us at Milsurp After Hours handloading forum |
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Cabinetman |
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First of all, the series I watched that produced this thread, is called "Digging in the Trenches" and the Brit 303 bullets we've been discussing
were actually discovered in the trenches when they were excavating it. So, the fact is that these round did exsist. The question is were they actually used?
I had no idea this subject would have had such a long life but it is turing out to be interesting. Here's something I found something that you all might find interesting with a link to the source. What do you think?? Rome http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Armour_Plate "When the armies on the western front dug themselves in and the fighting resolved itself into trench warfare there was an insistent demand for some means of protection for the men who had to face rifle fire at close quarters. Innumerable suggestions were made and .a vast number of experiments carried out with a view to producing a bullet-proof material of reasonable weight. The ordinary service bullet, consisting of a cupro-nickel (or in some cases a mild steel) case filled with lead, breaks up fairly easily on a plate of hard steel; but the Germans soon discovered that if the bullet is removed from the cartridge and reversed (i.e. so that the bullet travels with the base or blunt end in front instead of the pointed end) it did not break up but punched a hole in the plate. [so it would appear that the Germans were aware of this technique, too] Every effort was made to defeat this attack, but it was found that even with the use of the best quality of alloy steel available a minimum thickness of half an inch was necessary to stop the reversed bullet at short range. All sorts of materials were employed, but steels were found to be the most efficient, and of these nickel, chrome, manganese, vanadium, molybdenum and zirconium, both singly and in combination, were all tried. The best results, however, were obtained from nickel-chrome plates, sometimes with an addition of one of the rarer metals. While these experiments were being carried out in England the Germans were busy endeavouring to produce something more satisfactory than the reversed bullet which was only effective at short range. In this they were completely successful, and they produced the K or armour-piercing bullet. This consists of an outer envelope of mild steel of the same size and dimensions as the ordinary bullet. In the centre of the envelope is the bullet proper, made of hardened tungsten steel 30 mm. long, 6 mm. in diameter, and pointed at one end. The space between the envelope and the hard bullet is filled with lead. On striking a hard steel plate the outer envelope breaks up, but it and the lead lining appear to perform the function of a cap, and the hardened steel bullet perforates the plate. At ranges up to 60 yd. with a good rifle, and more than this with a rifle in which the rifling has been worn, the armour-piercing bullet is not effective, owing to unsteadiness in flight, but at longer ranges nothing less than half an inch of the best steel is of any use as a protection against a direct hit at the normal. The action of the armour-piercing bullet, however, differs from that of the reversed bullet. The former is a clean penetration of the plate, whereas the latter punches a hole and removes a portion of the plate in the form of a small cylinder. Both at long and short ranges, therefore, a plate of at least half an inch in thickness was found to be necessary to give any real protection,..." So, it seems that there might be something to the "reversed bullet" after all....
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.
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m1 talker |
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Then why is it that this was totally unknown for two generations? Only to come up in the last year or so. If they found cartridges that were supposedly made
this way, the I would also have to assume the cartridges were pretty corroded from laying on the ground or buried for many years. You can cut the point off a
.303 bullet and make it appear as a flat front bullet, just like inserting one backwards in the cartridge would look, and with the corrosion, you probably
could not tell the difference. I am still not convinced that this happened, and for me, it will remain as another urban myth.
Curt |
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akitaholic |
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OK, there's some evidence that reversed bullets could be effective as AP. I still think it would have to be done at an arsenal rather than in the field.
The Dum Dum "conversion" seems a more likely explanation than a reversed bullet for the cartridge that was unearthed. The cartridge could be X-rayed
or the bullet pulled to provide a definitive answer.
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benogil |
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Gabreski, Get a Tiger, get a P47 and try it. Then get back to us.
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Gabreski 1st FJ |
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No offense benoqil but its just physically impossible. Like I said Im trying to keep the history channel in line rather than debunk our heroes memories. I
respect your opinion and that of your father. Its entirely possible that tanks were killed this way just not tigers. Not all german tanks had 20mm of armor on
their bottoms. In fact its possible that the Pz2 Pz3 and even some Pz4 tanks were killed this way. The maximum they had on the bottom was 10 or less. Some even
5mm. So yes on tanks no on tigers
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Cabinetman |
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Hi all.
Well, now. This topic just won't go away! I just wanted to tell you all that I, too, pulled a bullet on some Indian .303 and it is impossible to reverse the bullet because of the cordite. The cordite comes up much too far into the neck of the case to allow the nose of the bullet to be inserted. Certainly the soldier would have had to either cut off the bullet itself or remove the cordite, cut it, and then reinstall it. Neither would seem to be a practical excercise on the battlefield. So, while I had high hopes for this story to have legs, unless I'm missing something the story seems to be busted. In good "mythbuster" fashion, however, it would be possible to do if you someone altered the bullet and/or changed the cordite. Still, it just doesn't seem like anyone would be able to take that much time to do that. Rome
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.
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BerdanIII |
Reversed Bullets as AP | ||
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Not all .303 was loaded with Cordite: the U.S. supplied NC-loaded (nitro-cellulose) ammunition as well as bulk powder to the Brits during the war. It may well
have been possible to reverse the bullet and still get it seated in the case, depending on the volume of the NC powder charge. NC powder charges could be
compressed slightly and still not run pressures past the danger point.
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curiokid |
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hi all, when my grandparents decided to move out of their country house into an old folks home, i came across some weird old stuff and found out alot about my
family history. among that history was a box of my great- grandfathers war stuff. my gandpa said that his dad was in WWI-something i never knew. among it were
browning? links with 1917 dated 30/06 ammo on them, springfeild stripper clips with 30/06 ammo dated 1917-1918, some big 40mm round i have no clue what it was
used for, and a journal he kept. my great grandfather was a US marine but often spent his lesuire time in the british trenches not far away, visiting with some
of his freinds, and in a cutout in that journal was a british .303 round with the bullet turned backwards. you could see barley above the brass where the
soldier had pulled the bullet out with pliers or something, almost looks like rifiling-anyway there was a note in with that bullet saying how the british
soldiers taught him how to do that so the bullets would penetrate the metal plates snipers used as cover(they used metal plates with holes cut in them for the
rifles and scope). in the note it says "apparently when a pointed bullet hits the metal plate it just makes a dent in it. but when a backwards bullet hits
a plate rather than punching through it, it shears metal off the back and that will hopefully damage the rifle and its scope and wound or kill the
sniper."- kind of how a brithish bunker buster bomb from WWII works-thought I'd include some information from a WWI vet's journal
Last Edited By: curiokid
12/31/08 03:53 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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Cabinetman |
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That's an amazing first-hand confirmation that these types of round were created! Would it be possible to post up a photo if you have it available?
Rome
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.
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curiokid |
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I am sorry but I cannot, because my grandmother donated most of his war stuff to a museum (one in lincoln I think) among them that journal and bullet... I
wish I had that stuff... but I cant complain, my grandfather gave me his fathers springfield rifle! man, what a work of art... and because I'm grandpas
favorite(and worked the hardest), he is leaving me with great grandpas 1911A1 as well!(when he is done having fun loving it)-I'm pretty lucky to have my
family of gun collectors and military men |
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curiokid |
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well, heres a photo of my great grandfathers service certificate. his signiture is there, but is very faint due to time--notice how they call it "The
Great War" and "World War" not WWI, and all of the flags at the bottom. pretty interesting.
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akitaholic |
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"...not WWI". The war to end wars, it was called. They weren't planning on a follow-up.
'holic |
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Tangara |
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There is a thread in the modern handgun forum that is hits this same subject, here is the link: http://parallaxscurioandr...rums.yuku.com/topic/28737 |
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gewehrdorkus |
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This is a way old subject and often alot of bull.
For a turned turtle bullet to have the effect of causing spalling on those armored loopholes the impact of the bullet woul need to be almost straight on , any real deflection woul dnegate any chance of causing spalling. Not to say they did'nt do it . Most accounts I have read of using turned turtle by the brits and the Germans involve the use of these bullets to tear up parapets and sandbagged fortifications. The turned turtle bullets readily shredded sand bags. Snipers would have zero use for turned turtle bullets as the long range velocity/accuracy would suffer. Overall the issues of feeding form the rifle magazine make use of such bullets a rather single loaded affair with rifles like mausers especially susceptable to brken extractors from single loading directly into the chamber. |
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blitz99 |
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As stated, the backwards bullets was used mainly to tear up sandbags, which it does do better than a normal pointed bullet. It was also used against steel, and
does help some. I used some original WWI German "S" ammo [ the bullet has an open lead base ] with the bullet seated backwards against steel plates
and here is what I found happens. When seated backwards the bullet must be seated deeper in the case to go in far enough to stay in the neck of the case. It
hits the powder charge and the powder has to really be compressed to get the bullet in far enough. It will feed from a Gew-98 magazine with a little finger
help . The compressed powder [ German flake will compress alot ] added to the smaller freebore from the flat base forward raised the velocity almost 200 fps .
Accuracy was good enough to hit 1 foot square steel plates at 100 yards most of the time . The backwards bullet made about a 30% deeper crater in a 7/8 inch
thick hardened plate that the regular bullet ammo . With a 1/2 thick plate the regular bullet would not quite go through. The backwards bullet did . It made a
larger bubble on the back that cracked or had a small hole going through which the molten lead did spray [ the jacket stayed on the front of the plate ] making
holes in the cardboard behind the plate. The backwards bullet looks to be working the same way a shaped charge works. The jacket thickness is in effect greatly
multiplied by the forward velocity to the point the lead is compressed between the jacket and plate untill it is molten and goes through the then "
thinner " steel plate . It looks like a 1/2 steel plate is in effect thinner than a 3000 fps .020 cone shaped bullet jacket, but a 7/8 plate is thicker .
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JasonB |
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Old NRA handloading guides mentioned that people used to seat .30 ball projectiles backwards with hopes of being a poor man's soft point hunting load. No mention of any hazards other than expansion was iffy at best. |
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