What do you think is the most under-appreciated milsurp?

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Bryan 45	What do you think is the most under-appreciated milsurp?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 2371 (01/04/09 02:57 PM) Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None In terms of reliability, accuracy, and total # produced, what milsurps do you think are under-appreciated? I think the Rashid is one. Wasn't there only about 5K produced? Prices on these have started to go up, but for something so comparitively rare, you would expect an excellent condition one to be $1000 or more. We've finally started to see the price on the K31 go up, but considering how fantastic these shoot, I still think they are undervalued. Swede Mausers were the same way, but it's tough to find one under $250 now.
Rustybore		#1	[-]
Posts: 826 (01/04/09 04:00 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I think the most undervalued rifle was the Swede. Excellent quality, accurate rifle. When they were first imported one could buy them for well under a hundred bucks. Prices have finally gone up, and I did sell my last rifle to a member of this board. No wait, I still have an excellent Husky M38, but I'm keeping that one. There were also some good buys on a couple Mauser varients, the CZ-22 and the Turks. Kevin in Or.
Draybo		#2	[-]
Posts: 1847 (01/04/09 04:04 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The MAS 36 in 7,5X55 French. Basically a 7.62x51 on steroids (kinda sorta). The "refurbs' often sport brand new barrels. The one I have, after a LOT of fooling around with getting the right sight set up is deadly accurate! It rivals my Swiss K31 in a lighter handier package with a super clean sight picture. Next vote from me would be the Swiss K31 as Bryan points out. Draybo : )
stantheman1986		#3	[-]
Posts: 5247 (01/04/09 05:24 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It's tough to find one, but I'll vote for the Yugo M48. Solid, strong no frills Mauser-type rifle. Shoots the common 8mm Mauser round, (well, not as common as it used to be, but still found "cheap"), and most of them shoot well with anything you can feed it in 8mm. I always recommend to new shooters or new-to-military rifles shooters to look for a Yugo M48 with a good bore. Still around for $150, the value of these isn't really going to skyrocket like K98's of any flavor have. M48's still have a "combat history" for those people who concern themselves with this kind of "provenance" when they saw use in the early 1990's. Last Edited By: stantheman1986 01/04/09 05:31 PM. Edited 1 times.
BobM14		#4	[-]
Posts: 523 (01/04/09 05:59 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I think the Trapdoor Springfield is probably my pick. The prices/values have gone way up and they have their following as far as collectors go, but for the most part, milsurp collectors that would buy up Mausers, Mosins and most any bolt action milsurp are lacking a Trapdoor in their collection. They are missing out on a great historical rifle that is truely tons o fun to shoot. Armed Infidel
usernamehasbeentaken		#5	[-]
Posts: 367 (01/04/09 06:27 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	for the milsurps that I'm most familiar with, I'd have to go with the Rasheed the VZ52 and the Alby SKS low production, hence perceived rarity, is always a plus Bob
Aubullet		#6	[-]
Posts: 958 (01/04/09 06:52 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	All choices so far have their validity, but if we are going to bring the Trapdoor into it (and I agree we should) then the Remington Rolling Block needs to be considered too. A superior system for it's time, and popular the world over, moreso than here anyway, it saw main battle service from the late 1860's into WWI, and even beyond in tribal and colonial settings. Second, only to the Sharps, in the buffalo market and the western frontier in civilian hands, and you can still get originals in shootable condition for half the price of a Trapdoor Springfield! Next after that I'd place the 1871/84 11mm Dutch Beaumont bolt action with it's nearly unique flat "V" mainspring built into the bolt handle, typically priced around $300, plus or minus half a C-note. Finally, I'd put in for the 1891 Argentine Mauser, which perhaps did more to get Mauser launched than any other, and many consider to be the epitome of manufacturing perfection, aesthetic lines appeal and superb accuracy while commonly still available around $200. Last Edited By: Aubullet 01/04/09 06:56 PM. Edited 2 times.
7GREEN		#7	[-]
Posts: 492 (01/04/09 10:26 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I would say the Mannlicher M-95. Probably because it was used by a long vanished empire on a WWI front that few in the West know much about. Yet the fighting there was as fierce as any on the Western Front in conditions just as miserable. Then anything Italian. Mussolini was right when he admitted in late 1940 that "The Italians of 1914 were better than these." The Italian Front in 1915-1917 saw plenty of combat in conditions even worse that the Western Front but the Italian military is always dismissed as at best second or third rate and at worst comic relief. We all know about the exploding Carcanos-that were only dropped twice. I put Trapdoors, along with all other blackpowder cartridge firearms in the "antiques" category. For lack of a better starting point I start "milsurps" as we think of them in 1886 when Vielle invents (and the French adopt) smokless powder (yes, I know, it's supposed to be after 1898).
mawkie		#8	[-]
Posts: 15 (01/04/09 11:04 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	All French small arms, but esp. the MAS 44/49 series. About 3000 MAS 44s, 3000 Syrian MAS 49s and less than 300 French MAS49s were imported into the US. A drop in the bucket compared to other similar milsurps. And many of the French MAS rifles were arsenal rebuilt and put into storage before being exported so they're in excellent condition. Since the French government is busily destroying all remaining inventories of MAS 49 rifles (many thanks to the UN, who probably have a best buddy in Obama) you can be assured that no more will cross the Atlantic either. They're sturdy and accurate (the French and Syrian MAS 49s have excellent sights). The MAS 49 receivers are all machined to accept the very nice APX L806 scope (or you can use the well built KVAR mount to install your own optics) so no bubba antics are needed if you want to update your sight system. That's why there are five MAS 49s and a MAS 44 in my safe! Then my other favorite is the Ross rifle. Those lucky enough to have a clean, unreamed MKII or MKIII know what a joy they can be at the range. Yet the all the turmoil over the MKIII has most shooters scared silly over them. In fact, I routinely see auction house catalog descriptions warn bidders of the danger of shooting a Ross. For example: I just won at auction a very nice MKIII at a low-ball price because some simpleton had removed the bolt and then on re-assembly jammed it into the receiver improperly. Everyone, including the auction house, assumed that it was another "well documented" Ross bolt design problem. Took me all of 10 minutes to get the bolt freed, inspected, cleaned, lubricated and properly assembled to the receiver. Voila, added another tack-driver to the collection. All the better for me!
glock40man		#9	[-]
Posts: 97 (01/05/09 02:55 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hard to say. Would go with the K-31. The metal work is outstanding,and if you were lucky enough to find one with a walnut stock in good shape. Ammo is a bit expensive and can be a pain to find. But for a long range shooter, it"s a good choice. Draws a group every time I take it to the range. They can still be had for under 200 bucks,but ya gotta look around.Next would be a Finn. Price's are waaay up on these babies. Very accurate and cheap to shoot.Choice of ammo is better now ,then just a few years ago. Got mine from a outfit in New York,Burns Brothers. I belive they went out of business several years ago.This rifle is tough,overbuilt,really. Heavy.
Cisco		#10	[-]
Posts: 1846 (01/05/09 01:58 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'd have to vote the Swede, fantastic workmanship and very acurate. Although not really a sleeper.
NC Cruffler		#11	[-]
Posts: 453 (01/05/09 09:18 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I gotta go with Dieudonne Saive's SAFN-49, probably the most elegant rifle design ever. I can't help but to think that John Moses Browning had more than a little influence in Saive's designs and Fabrique Nationale was wise in selecting Saive to finish Browning's GP-35 High-Power, argueably the finest pistol design. Perhaps if Saive hadn't been forced to flee the Nazis in 1941 his design may have been completed earlier and shortened the course of the war. Dave Dave Green, NRA Life Member since 1973
NC Cruffler		#12	[-]
Posts: 453 (01/05/09 09:18 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	If you are impatent and hit the post button twice you will cause a duplicate post like this one was before I edited it. Or maybe it gives me a chance for a second vote! O.K., number 2 (with a bullet) on my hit parade is the Spanish FR-8. Why? Because yesterday at the range it kicked butt against my friends '14 Enfield. LOL Dave Dave Green, NRA Life Member since 1973 Last Edited By: NC Cruffler 01/05/09 09:22 PM. Edited 1 times.
Ken Shabby		#13	[-]
Posts: 346 (01/05/09 09:53 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'd agree that the French rifles seem to be some of the least talked about. Also the Italian Carcano M91 - without the publicity associated with the Kennedy assassination, many of us probably wouldn't know anything about it. Honorable mention has to go to the Hi-Power as mentioned above. In a country where the M1911 can do no wrong, there seems to be relatively little interest for the excellent Hi-Power.
Plain Old Bill	Easy.	#14	[-]
Posts: 2061 (01/05/09 11:17 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Whichever one I have for sale at the moment!
stantheman1986		#15	[-]
Posts: 5249 (01/05/09 11:30 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	French PA-15 9mm pistol, not many people know about these, I didn't either until I found one at a local gun shop. Built like a tank, accurate, and relatively hard to find. This is one pistol that seems like it will outlast the shooter! Mine is just used enough that I am not afraid to run some rounds through it , trying to track down spare recoil springs just to have on hand. I don't have one, but same would go for the MAC 50, just a tough 9mm. The French made some good weapons and most are under appreciated, it seems like many on this post feel the same way! Maybe not true "surplus" but the ex-cop guns like old 60's-70's S&W Model 10's are around for $150-200, a steal in my opinion. These guns are built to last, and very accurate and versatile no-frills "fighting revolvers". Just bought a Hi-Power today, always looking for 9mm service pistols! Some say the Hi-Power is the best pistol ever designed, I'll form my opinion after I run a few hundred rounds through it......for now I still say the CZ-75 is one of the world's best 9mm's. These days I'm turning back into a wheelgun man, so I'll have to say a lot of the European small-caliber revolvers are vastly undervalued. Back to the French, I have two 1892 revolvers that, at over 110 years of age still lock up tight as a vault and time and index perfectly. Older Nagants and even the new refurbs are in my opinion a durable gun for the money. My two Rast-Gassers are built like Swiss watches, simple actions that really can't malfunction. One of mine has taken tons of abuse and neglect but functions perfectly. These fine revolvers are only handicapped by non-existent ammo, and the correct ammo is anemic at best......... forcing me to fire .32 S&W long in them just to hear them go bang, and thus I can't apreciate the accuracy I'm sure these wheelguns can produce. These often go unsold for $4-500, seems like a lot but people are plunking down more for Taurus .38's.
Bryan 45		#16	[-]
Posts: 2376 (01/06/09 08:56 AM) Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The Hi Power is not fit for human consumption. I wouldn't recommend anyone burden themselves with such a cursed excuse for a handgun. The only use for the Hi Power is collecting the dust bunnies floating around your local gunshops. Here's a few of mine!
m1 talker		#17	[-]
Posts: 6377 (01/06/09 09:33 AM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I don't see any dust bunnies on those! Curt
zeebill		#18	[-]
Posts: 3417 (01/06/09 10:18 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Wow! You guys pointed out a bunch of the ones I would have picked! I was surprised at all the French rifles on there as I have a thing against them I will never know I guess! I am going to surprise and shock a few who know my penchant for Finnish Mosins when I say the much maligned Carcano rifle and especially the M38 short rifle in 7.35. It's very short and handy and when I can find reliable surplus ammo it does a great job once you are used to the sights. I find the Finnish corrected and replaced sights work just fine on them though. I have two of them and really kind of like this often over looked and maligned rifle. The ammo problem probably could be cured by reloading I guess but right now I find very little quality surplus around. Someone told me PRVI Partisen loads 7.35 for it but I have never noticed any as it is generally not on my priority list. So my thought on this subject is the M38 short rifle Carcano. Bill
surplusguy		#19	[-]
Posts: 55 (01/06/09 10:32 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I vote for any of the carcano line.They are constantly put down as being inacurrate,but my experience has been nothing but favorable.I will say I have no experience with the 7.35 that zeebill has mentioned,but am dying to try one for comparison to the rest I have and have shot. ERIC
m1 talker		#20	[-]
Posts: 6378 (01/06/09 02:22 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Anyone who says the Carcano rifles are not accurate needs to learn a few things about them. I have an M-41 in 6.35 caliber and it was equipped with a copper barrel! I bought it in excellent condition at a small local gun show about five years ago, along with some Solenite loaded milsurp ammo! Boy, that ammo smells worse than after a night of eating bean burritos and washing them down with beer when it is fired. It is wonderful to clear the area around you when you don't want to be distracted while shooting. Even with that crappy shooting, it presented some good groups at 100 yards after I learned that the sight picture is just about opposite of other open sighted rifles like Mausers and such. And yes, I can rapid fire the thing and hit accurately. I think the Carcano's got a bad reputation on November 22, 1963 in that incident in Dallas. A lot of people still refer to them as a "Kennedy Killer", which I am not part of people with mentalities like that. The reason I say mine had a copper barrel is because of the effort I had to put into it removing copper fouling out of the bore. Believe me, it was just like removing copper deposits out of the inside of a copper pipe! Every day after coming home from work, I would run a few patches thru it and they would come out bright green, and I would swab the bore out and let it sit overnight again till the next day and repeat the process. I even used Sweets 7.62 which is supposed to be very agressive copper fouling cleaner. Well this was kept up for well over a month before the patches started coming out clean. Subsequent shooting it revealed it was still just as accurate as before the long cleaning process it went thru. Sadly, I am out of 6.35 Carcano ammunition, so it sits there begging me for a range trip. There used to be an outfit that loaded non-corrosive ammo for it, and I think it was Yugoslavian, but I can not find any of it available anywhere. But other than the ammo situation and re-learning the proper sight picture when firing, I have no real complaints with any of the Carcano rifles. Curt