MCQ
Also known as the M88 Mauser, Gew 88, Kar88, and Gewehr 88.
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MCQueen1 |
Re: OK, I think everyone has made their point | ||
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TG ole buddy....You do realize the Wright Brothers didn't just slap some canvas on some wood and push the thing off a cliff?
MCQ |
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tommauser |
>Re: OK, I think everyone has made their point. | ||
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TG, if you still have doubts what the other people are
trying to say to you just imagine this: Some guy would charged his .50 cal modern muzzleloader with 150 grain of Bullseye smokeless pistol powder and 500 grain slug, now tell me, is it safe? Of course NOT! Most likely the gun would blow up. This is similar scenario you are facing. Regarts, Tom. |
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scooter222 |
You can have your Turk and shoot it too!!! | ||
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TG, take your Turk ammo and download it say 10%. You got cheap AND safe ammo for your M88. All the posts are cocerned about your safety. This is a fun hobby and no one wants to see anyone hurt. This site is a place you can get great info before you jump into something. Kinda reminds me of a friend years ago that tried to jump off a garage roof on the side with the fence. He didn't make it and now has more room between his legs than most of us!
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Hunter1981 |
Pushing the Envelope | ||
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Dear Travilin Guy, I too am known for pushing the envelope and disregarding some advice on this board. For instance I shoot my milsurps without checking headspace, and reload steel and aluminum cartridge cases over strong objections from other members. I too am a "Show Me" kind of guy and am the first to admit there are many misconceptions in the shooting world.
If you want to shoot this ammo out of you 88 rifle go ahead, but don't base it on your cartridge cases not showing any pressure. I reload for the fairly anemic 30-30 Win round, and have never seen signs of high pressure even at maximum listed loads. This is because pressure signs only begin to show after about 60,000 p.s.i. Which is well past a 30-30 or j bore 8mm round's pressure limit. This criteria can be used to evaluate reloads for such cartridges as the .270 Win and .223 Rem because their safe pressure limit is much closer to the threshold at which pressure signs develop. The point I a trying to make here is that the pressure signs do not deelop until the strength of the head of the brass is exceeded, which in the case of the .30-30 or 8mm J is far above what the actions were designed to stand. |
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travlin guy |
Re: Pushing the Envelope | ||
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i understand what everybody is trying to say and i'm not going to shoot a couple hundred rounds of turk through the 88 at one sitting but if i want to shoot it i'm not going to break my neck running down to the local gunshop to pay 15 or 20 bucks for 20 rnds of remchester just to shoot it.if i ever find another 88 that is a beater with a good action i'm gonna test it with a few hundred rnds of turk just to see what happens.after strapping it down and tying a string to the trigger of course.
TG |
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mkgr22 |
Re: Pushing the Envelope | ||
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my uneducated guess would be that repeated firing of the Turk ammo would lead to lug setback, meaning increased headspace, and then the pressure signs of pierced or flattened primers would probably begin to show. Not a catastrophic failure, but renders the rifle a wallhanger.
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conradwojo |
Re: Pushing the Envelope | ||
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TG, I also push the limits in my re-loads and other tests, but also have some concerns. I have found several of my testings have shown no pressure signs at all, even when way beyond reasonable pressure limits for those particular rounds, so would tend to agree with those who say that high pressure does not always equal visible signs. I also would be very leery playing pressure games with any old rifle, so would use the string method on an old beater like you mentioned and be prepared to trash it. I also would add that I finally decided some of my older rifles just aren't for shooting much anymore, so take care of them as they are, collectors. But it is America, and it's your rifle to do with as you wish, and...I am sure interested in seeing how your tests go if you do go through with them. I just today was asked to evaluate the first Gew88 I've ever held, and it's a really nice rifle. But I don't think I'd put it in the "test rifle" category and would only re-load anemic spitzers for it if it were mine. I would have to take a deer with it eventually also, cause I like to use them if I can. Have fun, be very careful, and please keep sharing. Thanks!
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Bob S |
The result of shooting Turk ammo in an 88 ... | ||
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A "Turked" 88. Note the cracked recoil lug (red arrow):
![]() IMHO, even if you have a barrel with the "correct" internal dimensions for S Patrone (as in a Turk 88/35), the 88 action isn't up to containing the increased pressure of the S Patrone or equivalent ammo. Resp'y, Bob S. "In God we trust. All others must have supporting data."
VADM James Webber, Chief Engineer of the Navy, circa 1986 |
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travlin guy |
Re: The result of shooting Turk ammo in an 88 ... | ||
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just a followup 400 rnds of turk later and i'm still kickin hehe
TG |
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SteveM |
Re: The result of shooting Turk ammo in an 88 ... | ||
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travlin guy,
I agree with you. I wish people would stop these stupid rumours. Just show me the proof. SteveM |
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Mr Hainey |
Re: The result of shooting Turk ammo in an 88 ... | ||
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Well everyone, it is the LAST post on this subject for everyone.
Anyone taking pot shots at people on my board will be shut down with my "delete" key. Continued bickering will get you banned period. This is now locked, and I will entertain reasons why I should not just delete this whole thread............in a new thread. Lastly, I am removing the last 3 posts, as I find them unacceptable in my humble opinion, and also against Bill's rules. And it should be noted that I am quite capable of identifying a GEW88, GEW88/05, GEW88/14, KAR88, and GEW91. Better to be hated for who you are, than loved for who you're not.....
MOLON LABE MrHainey |
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WILDCATT2 |
88 ammo | ||
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I have problem with ammo post.what is so high powered about the 8 mm ammo.heavy bullets are slower.now is the pressure realy higher in the 98 8mm or is it that
the bullet is lighter.most ammo was loaded for machine guns.with 198 gr bullets at 2300fps,not 2800fps.Ruger mini 30 has .308 bore and chambered to take 7.62 x
39 ammo.(.312).thats .04 larger.the 88 bore rifled is .321.I am to old and not too computer literate to search for answers.It is interesting that older guns
were rebarreled to modern military cartridges for war.If you have problem with full loads best to reload with cast bullets which also saves the barrel.the
french berthier was used with the 236 gr bullet and full charge and that gun was upgraded Gras/lebel.I prefer cast as they can be accurate and
mild.
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WILDCATT2 |
ammo | ||
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just checked LOAD FROM A DISK:150gr bullet
load density %70 =40.5 gr ball "c"=2216 at 27,890 psi load density%100=53.9 gr ball "c"=2949 at 49,399 psi very interesting: german proof loads are 72,000 psi so a load at %70 would be a very safe load. |
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mike hudson |
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as a journalist by trade, i'd be interested in ANY documentation -- shooter's name, place of incident and date would suffice -- showing that anyone was
ever hurt by shooting any 8mm round out of an m-88 ever in the recorded history of mankind.
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Plevna |
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Mike: As one old man's opinion, I think the study you have proposed is most welcome and long overdue. I suspect that many modern concerns surrounding the
use of "high pressure" 8 mm ammunition in Gew 88s are ultimately based on the experiences of rifle failure shortly after the Model 1888 went into
active use with the German army (this has been discussed by Paul Scarlata in his recent book). That being said, it nonetheless strikes me as very prudent to
keep in mind that the newest Gew 88s are now over 110 years old and it is an impossibility to know with any degree of certainty what abuse and misuse any given
rifle has suffered prior to coming into our hands.
Above and beyond concerns with the pressure limitations of the rifle as originally produced, I suggest that it is prudent to keep in mind factors such as metal fatigue on the one hand and the dollar value of an antique weapon on the other. Speaking only for myself, simply because a "hot" round will chamber in one of my rifles does not tempt me to be the one to pull the trigger. That being said, your study would be a very useful and informative addition to the Gew literature and I hope you'll keep us posted on your findings. |
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JONES.k98kpage |
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why not shoot lead bullet reloads,they can be shot at 2300 fts.thats what I will do if it stops raining and cools of so I can handle it.I have 5 rifles I have
been working on two 88s two 84 mausers and one swiss 41.oh and an argentine 1909.plus garand in 30/06 and one in 308.
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Smokepole50 |
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Just down load your Turk ammo to 40gr of Turk powder and go shoot it. This is what I did with my Turked GEW88 and I was very happy with the accuracy.
Smokepole50 |
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blitz99 |
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There is a lot of really bad information posted in these posts . A lot of conclusions based on bad data . First , If T-guy's bore is really .319 -.321 , he
either did a bad bore measurement or his bore is totaly worn out to almost a smooth bore . If it is a smoothbore it will not make near the pressure a bore with
rifling will . If he measured it wrong and it is really a .312 - .325 Bore , it will again make less pressure . What Greek ammo was used , a .323 dia sS bullet
or a .321 dia S bullet ? That will make a differance . The Turk ammo was a copy of the German S ammo , it has a .321 dia main body bullet [ Not a .323 ] . That
ammo WAS designed to be fired in the Gew-88 rifle by the Germans and they fired millions of rounds of it in their Gew-88's . The Turks did also . It will
not cause "extra" bore wear . The Germans measured and marked the rifles land size during the 05 conversion and most Turk Gew-88's are still
right on . These rifles had been fired with S ammo before WWI , during WWI and some after by the Turks before we got them . All of that being stated , I would
not use too much Turk ammo in a Gew-88 for several reasons . There is no need for that power now , Some Turk ammo has seemed to have got " stronger"
over the years of unknown storage , The rifles are now over 110 years old , and you do not know the abuse history of a rifle . Mr. Haineys ammo info is all
wrong , bullet weights , sizes and velocities , also the bore sizes and throat info . Bad info in means incorrect info out . The Gew-88 and Gew-98 have
different steel ?, made stronger ? . Some 88's and 98's were made at the same place within 6 months of each other , and they make the steel as strong
as they could , not "rated" to a certain cartridge . The Gew-88's receiver is not brittle , it is softer than most . That means you will get a
stretch or set back before you get a shattered receiver . The early German problems had nothing to do with the steel or strenght , it is clearly documented as
a powder problem . The powder broke down quickly from a progressive burn to an explosion , like going from A slow burning powder to Bullseye [ more like C-4 ]
. It all still comes down to what YOUR bore measures . What may be semi-safe in one rifle can be dangerous in another . A rifle with a Turk .312-.325 bore is
going let you shoot some ammo that would really hurt a rifle with a .306-316 Czech bore . Also military bullet have a totaly different construction than US
make bullets , so they act different and can not be loaded to the same velocities with the same pressures . The Germans NEVER intented the .323 198 grain sS
ammo to be shot in a Gew-88 rifle , again if a rifle has a big Turk bore you may get away with it . Between US made jacketed bullets , cast bullets and
mild-small dia Romanian surlpus ,,, you should be able to find something to work in YOUR rifle .
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