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mto7464 |
No4MK1 bolt heads. |
Lead | |
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What size do these come in? How can you tell which one you have? Mine seems to have excessive headspace looking at the brass. I would like to reload it but
the brass looks to stretched to risk using again.
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Smead |
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The heads are marked on the extractor housing, sizes are 0, 1, 2, 3...each size up means a longer bolthead, thus decreasing headspace.
Though you really have to measure them with calipers to ascertain their actual length and then look out for over rotation. Helpful link: http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/ti3.htm Over rotation:
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brass rat |
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What is it about your brass that makes you thing you have a headspace problem? #4's headspace on the rim not the shoulder as with rimless rounds.
Check out parashooter's LE headspace sticky at the top of this forum. If you really think there is an issue with headspace get it checked with an armorers .074 field gage. Most #4's have very generous chambers and tend to stretch brass quite a bit. I have a Long Branch that expands the brass so much that I rarely shoot it any more. The throat is so large that the first time I tried to FL size the brass I thought I had gotten ahold of some steel cases. I ended up working them into a collet die to size the neck down to where it would fit in the FL die. Just neck sizing would be best but I have 8 rifles chambered in .303 and I really don't want to keep 8 seperate batches of brass.
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Why not join us at Milsurp After Hours handloading forum
Last Edited By: brass rat
02/14/09 11:31 AM.
Edited 2 times.
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bigedp51 |
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If you are going to reload you should tighten up your headspace to help prevent deforming your brass if you are reloading American made cases.
Much of what you read about "headspace issues" are caused by shooting American made SAAMI cases that have tighter headspace requirment settings.
These American SAAMI cases are not made to British and Commonwealth military specifications and are weaker and stretch and thin in the Enfield's chamber.
Below is a factory Winchester case fired in my No.4 Maltby with the headspace set at .066, the case has
stretched and thinned in the web area by .009 (nine thousandths) on the first firing.
On the opposite end of the spectrum I just finished checking and prepping 500 once fired Greek HXP cases that were fired in several different machine guns and several different Enfield's, NOT ONE of these HXP cases had any thinning in the web area NONE OF THEM.
Headspace is governed by the cases you are shooting and not the specifications written in the military manuals.
Case in point, below is the Canadian No.4 headspace settings published in 2002. I read this as: .064 GO .070 NO-GO .074 FIELD
The book below tells you to set your headspace to .003 (three thousandths) over your rim thickness and it was
written in 2005.
This book below tells you to set your headspace between .064 and .067 and it was written in 1946.
If I remember correctly today or currently there are five different specifications for American cartridge case brass, meaning a pistol case with a chamber pressure of 18,000 CUP is not made to the same specifications as rifle case designed for over 50,000 CUP.
Our American .303 ammunition is downloaded to less than 43,000 CUP in deference to all the older No.1 and older Enfield's still being used and fired.
Our American made brass cases were not designed to fire at .303 military chamber pressures and not designed for long fat chambers.
If you reload American made cases your best bet is to set your headspace as tight as possible as it is the
only distance you can shorten, you can't make the chamber smaller in diameter.
On my No.4 Mk2 below I fitted a second bolt head and set the headspace .003 over my case rim thickness or the head space is set at slightly less than .062, with Remington cases that were reloaded and fired three times the cases have only thinned in the web area .0005 or half a thousandths of an inch.
NOTE: The rim thickness of my Remington cases are .058 and this gives me slightly less than .004 head gap clearance or .004 "air gap" between the rear of the case and the bolt face, my Winchester 94 30-30 has .0045 head gap clearance and a smaller diameter chamber and less chamber pressure (38,000 CUP). The reason I bring up the 30-30 is because I think our .303 cases are being made from the same grade/spec brass.
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Parashooter |
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If you shoot a lot of factory rounds, especially if they have skinny rims and thin bodies, reasonably tight headspace can enhance safety and accuracy. On the
other hand, if you handload for a .303 with generous headspace, there's little need to mess with bolt heads - changing the rifle's clearances to yield
longer case life. You can control cartridge end-play simply by changing technique.
When you fire a new case for the first time, use an improvised spacer ahead of the rim - anything from a precision metal washer to dental floss can work to hold the the cartridge head firmly against the bolt face and eliminate or reduce stretch even if end-play is significant. Another way of accomplishing the same end is to use a bullet seated out far enough to jam into the lands, "headspacing" on the bullet instead of the case. Such techniques are useful only if the rifle/cartridge combination yields excess end-play. With normal headspace and rim thickness, initial stretch isn't enough to worry about.
After you've fire-formed your new cases they will fill the chamber fully, stopping on the shoulder just like a rimless cartridge. If you neck size, you'll have zero "headspace". If you have to full length size, adjust the die so the cases chamber with just a bit of resistance in the last few degrees of bolt rotation. Above all, don't try to turn a .303 into a magnum. Keep pressures below the limit and you reduce the small amount the bolt and receiver compress/stretch on firing in a rear-locking action. With these techniques you can make your .303 cases last for dozens of loading cycles, even if your "gauge headspace" is well beyond the .074" field spec. To demonstrate how we can control head clearance using only the shoulder, I filed off the rim of a once-fired Remington .303 case. After adding an extractor groove to fit a Mauser-size shellholder, I neck-sized, reloaded and fired this case 19 more times.
The load was a 180-grain jacketed soft-point over a lightly-compressed charge of IMR 4350 (giving an average velocity of 2310 fps for the 19 shots and listed at just under 39,000 CUP in my IMR data booklet). The test rifle was a 1943 Lithgow S.M.L.E. Mk.III*. 20 shots was enough for a practical test, I sectioned the case to examine the web/body junction area where thinning normally occurs.
This case, fired 19 times with no rim, has not stretched or thinned at all. I'm sure it could have continued for at least another 20 of these moderate loads. It's clear to me that the .303's shoulder, alone without help from the normal rim, is entirely adequate to maintain "headspace" when sized in a way that preserves the shoulder location. Those handloaders who experience poor case life with neck-sized handloads should look for other factors to explain premature case failures. The most likely source of trouble is high pressure. More pressure means more action flex and that means shorter case life. |
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eb in oregon |
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Uh, why?
"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776 |
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Parashooter |
Why - | ||
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Because there are some readers here with the capacity to absorb information and use it. The original post on this thread indicates a concern with headspace and
case stretch. All but one of the replies address these issues.
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bigedp51 |
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eb in oregon
"Uh, why?"
If you look at Mr. Parashooter extremely well written Headspace 101 at the top of the forum you will see his animated .gif image of the chamber and cartridge, if you look closely you will see an "air gap" between the bolt face and the rear of the case.
This "air gap" is called head gap clearance and is the amount the case will stretch in the web area when fired, if the case stretches too far it can become deformed or warped and this is sometimes called a banana shaped case.
When a banana shaped case is reloaded the bullets are not aligned properly with the bore and accuracy suffers. Please notice that Mr.Parashooter also kept his load just slightly below 39,000 CUP which also helps keep the brass case from deforming.
These warped cases are not hard to find even without gauges, if you get tighter groups the first time you fire your new brass cases and larger groups the second time you fire these same cases the cases may be warped.
Below is a warped banana shaped case, the base of the
case is as crooked as a dogs hind leg.
Last Edited By: bigedp51
02/17/09 12:29 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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eb in oregon |
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I think every "Telecommunication Consultant" should have a hobby.
"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776 |
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TP |
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eb in oregon wrote:
Why not? Good work Parashooter. Not everyone appreciates clear and concise information, but it is out there for those who want it and can learn from it, keep it up. |
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eli griggs |
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I find this to be very interesting Parashooter, thank you for posting it and including the visuals. I am curious though about the extractor groove and its
purpose; what have I missed?
Eli
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~ Thomas Jefferson ~
"In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity". - Albert Einstein WANTED - Lee Loaders - .223, 6.5 Swede Mauser, 7.5 Swiss, 7.62x39, 7.62x54r, .308 Win, .303 Brit, 7.7 WANTED- Turkey and Goose feathers for fletching arrows |
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Parashooter |
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The groove in the "rimless" .303 case allows the extractor to do its job. This is easier than pushing the fired case out from the muzzle. It also
makes it easier to handload, since it provides something a shellholder can grab to pull the case out of the sizer die.
Don't worry about "Eb". He's not a quick study but seems to catch on to most ideas if given enough time. |
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Ed Novak |
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Neat work! Thanks Parashooter. Your work never ceases to amaze me as to the ingenious methods you develop to keep these old rifles working.
NRA Endowment member
LECS #2 |
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eb in oregon |
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"Don't worry about "Eb". He's not a quick study but seems to catch on to most ideas if given enough time."
"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776
Last Edited By: eb in oregon
02/18/09 09:12 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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TP |
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Well Eb, that was a good post but you would save yourself and everybody else some heartburn if you would go ahead and state your opinion right up front rather
than a facetious "Why?" Your second post explains your background and how you feel and you would have saved yourself a whole lot of extra typing and
some hard feelings on your part if you had stated your reasoning right up front. You have to remember that not everyone knows you or your knowledge level so
don't be shy, go ahead and express your reasoning and if people find find value in it they can use it.
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Ed Novak |
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Eb asked "why" and received an explanation, which answered the "why"? . The added comment seemed over the top; I have the greatest respect
for Parashooter and his work but ... Eb's question caused me no "heartburn" so I can be left out of the "everybody else". Little
"jabs" here and there and unsolicited advice add nothing to the fine information being presented on this. Must be the long winter making me and some
others a bit cheeky.
NRA Endowment member
LECS #2 |
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eb in oregon |
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My particulars are posted in my profile.
"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776
Last Edited By: eb in oregon
03/06/09 05:46 PM.
Edited 2 times.
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