Interesting stuff around Little Bighorn engagement.
http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=QoM7rXWg2HM
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Mosu |
George Armstrong Custer and Little Bighorn |
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I don't know if you have noticed this one: Battle of the Little Bighorn - 1-5
Interesting stuff around Little Bighorn engagement. http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=QoM7rXWg2HM
Last Edited By: Mosu 04/04/09 05:21 PM.
Edited 2 times.
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Alibi |
Greasy Grass | ||
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That sound byte is somewhat better than most, it is certainly better than the History Channel myth perpetuating version. In every book, movie and documentary there is inevitably errors that taint any historical fact that is presented. In my view no one has got the story totally correct or provided an unbiased and well researched reconstruction. The forensic evidence of the violence is much more comprehensively reported in "Archeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Big Horn," by Douglas A. Scott, et.al., University of Oklahoma Press, 1989. Much of what has been written and presented in film has perpetuated the myths and legends, and done little to provide an understanding of the dynamics of the battle. I invite your attention to "Custer's Last Stand, The Anatomy of an American Myth," by Brian W. Dippie, University of Nebraska Press, 1996. The often used statement "Custer's Last Stand" begs the question when did he ever conduct a "stand" of any kind. His Civil War combat service was mostly brash cavalry attacks and his previous Indian engagements had been nothing more than raids. There was never in any of his previous combat experiences where he had been seriously engaged by anyone to the point that he had to make a defensive "stand." So we could just as easily say "Custer's first, only and last stand." The battle was insignificant except as it impacted the public at the time and unreasonably generated interest since. The plains tribes that had left the reservations eventually returned to those miserable places and the subjugation of the Native Americans continued as if nothing happened in 1876. I happened to visit the battle field on the 99th anniversary of the battle and a couple of times since. The most striking thing that I realized was how badly scattered the individual monuments are on the battlefield. Although there is a certain degree of continuity to the location of the five companies they were in non-mutually supporting positions and clearly engaged in hasty defensive battles, that is each company fought its own battle and the battalion was defeated in detail. One aspect of the "recreation" of the Army uniforms and equipment of the time aggravates me because there is plenty of information available but the people that do the reenactments seem determined to put a little "Hollywood" into their portrayals. When I visited the battle field in 1975 there was a man that I guess was a Park Service Ranger that was wearing uniform and equipment and lecturing on the battle, which looked exactly what he was: an overweight middle-aged ridiculously inaccuratly uniformed and equipped history buff. I didn't bother to stay around long enough to hear his dialog. One of the sorriest aspects of the History Channel version of the battle was the perpetuation of the myth that the Indians were well armed with repeating firearms and that the cavalry troops involved in the battle had problems with the carbines frequent failure to extract. These two "facts" it was cited as contributing to the disaster. The Indians in the movies are invariably well armed but those that fought the Battle of the Greasy Grass weren't and archeological evidence proves it. As to the myth that the cartridges frequently "jammed" in the carbines, the question was originally raised at the Reno Court of Inquiry. What everyone seems to forget is that at the Reno-Benteen defensive position the carbines remained in action for the better part of two days and no such malfunctions were reported by the nearly 400 soldiers that survived the action. BTW Reno was not court martialed for his actions or failure of his duty at the Little Big Horn, but had been severely criticized and requested a Court of Inquiry to clear his reputation which it did. Despite the findings by the Court of Inquiry he continued to be shunned by other officers. He was in fact later court martialed for failure to perform his duties mainly because of inebriation and cashiered from the Army. He has since been reinstated. |
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reddogge |
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I visited the battlefield last September and was struck too by how widely scattered the markers were. I think the small group including Custer and his brothers
was a stand in that they were being shot to pieces and had to make one but I have heard small groups had broken off and were trying to get down to the treeline
and were cut down on the way. Also lot of soldiers were killed in the mad scramble to the hill site.
"What happened? What the HELL happened?" Jake Holman "The Sandpebbles" |
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Colin |
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Concerning the carbines that might have had extraction problems during the battle; has anyone examined fired cases recovered after the battle, or during any
archeological work, that show signs of having had extraction problems? I have a 45-70 copper case (not from the Custer battlefield), with a notch in the rim
that just matches the extractor. Someone had trouble getting that one out of the chamber. If there was not a significant percentage of recovered cases showing
similiar deformation, it would help dispel the myth of cases jamming in extraction during the battle.
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diamondtim |
Battle of Little Bighorn 1-5 | ||
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I watched all 5 last night. Very good, IMHO. It told a story of the battle that I had not heard before and found very interesting.
The archaeologists collected an amazing amount of evidence to support their belief of how the battle was fought. There was no conjecture that the rifles were defective (quite the opposite, as a matter of fact), but that the tribal warriors were able to deliver more rounds on target faster than the soldiers and were able to maneuver freely. The native fighters had advantages in numbers, firepower, tactics and exploited them to deadly effect.
Share the Love,
Diamondtim Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives - Essential ingredients of Redneck celebrations for over 100 years! |
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Alibi |
The Greasy Grass is fought on | ||
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I am not going to quote the entire discussion of The Question of Extraction Failure (pages 113-115) in Archeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Bighorn, but will attempt to give a brief synopsis. The report provides a rather complex analysis of the cartridges, cartridge cases and projectiles recovered on the battle using modern methods of firearms forensics. Unfired cartridges are of course meaningless to the question of the type firearm used and any problems encountered in the cycle of operation of the firearm except that a very small sample of unfired cartridges with firing pin strikes were reported. What may be of more general interest is the identification of cartridges fired in the wrong type firearm which was obviously the Indians using anything that functioned. I have to mention that the authors of Archeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Bighorn use ambiguous terminology such as "jammed" in discussing this issue that exhibits a rather unsophisticated knowledge of military firearms, terminology and functioning. The historical record indicates that Maj. Reno reported six carbines out of 380 in his command with cases that failed to extract and required more than immediate action to clear. It is acknowledged that it was known that there were carbines that had cartridge cases that failed to extract but were cleared by the soldiers applying immediate action to remove the cases. The number of these incidents will never be known for obvious reasons. It was also reported that carbines with failure to extract were cleared using the cleaning rod from the rifle carried by Capt. French. Capt. Michaelis, Ordnance Department, reported to have examined one carbine with unextracted cartridge case that he found had been "carelessly handled and the cartridge was dirty." The Indians recovered all of the firearms that they could and reported they experienced an unspecified number of failures to extract in the caerbines captured. Native American Wooden Leg related that he recovered a carbine on the battlefield, found it had an unextracted case and threw the carbine into the river. It should also be noted that when Weir advanced to what is now called Weir Point that the Indians advanced on the position and were using captured carbines in the attack. In a collection of 1,625 .45/70 cartridge cases held by the Park Service and in a private collection, three cases were identified to have unspecified evidence of extraction problems. Of the cartridge cases recovered during the excavation and recovery effort reported in Archeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Bighorn three cartridge cases from the "Custer battlefield" and six cases from the Reno-Benteen defense site exhibit marks that could have been caused by forced or pried extraction from the chamber. One was positively identified to have been pried from the chamber. So there is both historical information and archeological evidence that there were problems of unextracted cartridge cases during the Battle of the Greasy Grass. The question is how significant was the problem to the outcome of the Custer battalion fight? There are other factors that should be considered: for example apparently the fight of the Custer battalion was a more or less series of meeting engagements with some movement of troops until forced into hasty defensive positions. It is believed that at times the soldiers fired their carbines while mounted. The historical evidence is that the enlisted soldiers were issued 100 rounds of carbine ammunition two or three days prior to the battle, so there should not have been an issue of corroded cartridge cases as is sometimes speculated. Of the one hundred rounds of ammunition issued at least half were in the saddle bags of the cavalry mounts that Indian accounts indicate were stampeded away from the troops, if not killed on the battlefield. The point is that the troops with Custer had varying experiences in the length and intensity of their involvement in the battle and the availability of ammunition. Presumably a carbine with unextracted cartridge case hampered sustained fire and certainly reduced the volume of fire and probably meant that the carbine was out of action long enough that there was no opportunity for the incidence of subsequent failures to extract. Volume of fire is only used to achieve superiority of fire in a situation in which it is necessary to suppress enemy fire. Volume of fire is not usually well aimed fire and produces few casualties. So any discussion of "firepower" and how much effect it produced is speculative. The soldiers involved in the fight were hardly veterans and most were recent recruits with no previous combat experience. On the Indian side there were few warriors that were not combat veterans and personal bravery was expected by the society. What I am attempting to relate here is that there are so many factors that are related to the dynamics of the battle that pointing to one or two factors that one believes are significant to the outcome is a very speculative thing to do. Much like the O.J. Simpson murder trial it was a great deal more than the "planted" bloody sock and the glove that didn't fit. |
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nothernug |
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Years ago the National Muzzle Loading Rifle asso, ran in their publication "Muzzle Blasts" a report of the battle compiled by Sioux survivors of the
battle on the Rosebud reservation (IIRC) in about 1894, (again, IIRC). It was no doubt biased too but gave an entirely different perspective of the battle.
Unfortunately that issue is long gone from me. I did a quick look on line and couldn't find it, but found something else interesting. I cannot vouch for
its origins at all. I only post the address(es) as a matter of interest.
http://www.astonisher.com...og2_little_big_horn.html http://www.astonisher.com...ig_horn.html#moving_robe http://www.astonisher.com...dog_little_big_horn.html Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie until you can find a rock. Will Rogers |
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7GREEN |
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There is an excellent book "Custer in '76" by Walter Mason Camp (1867-1925) contains many interviews he conducted with Indian particpants, he
was going to expand it into a book but did not live to do so.
Regarding the problems with the 45-70s, I think the fact that Custer was outnumbered 5-1 was more of a factor. Likewise the Indians "pumping their Winchesters." They didn't care for cartridge guns, the repeaters such as the Henry and Winchester lacked the power and the range for the type of hunting the Indians did. And the ammunition was hard to come by. However Ordnance departments make for handy scapegoats. |
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Dalkowski110 |
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"As to the myth that the cartridges frequently 'jammed' in the carbines, the question was originally raised at the Reno Court of Inquiry. What
everyone seems to forget is that at the Reno-Benteen defensive position the carbines remained in action for the better part of two days and no such
malfunctions were reported by the nearly 400 soldiers that survived the action."
You've inadvertantly started me on a tangent here, but it always seems to be that whenever a military viewed as more technologically advanced than another loses, it's the guns that get blamed, despite whatever was said in the court of inquiry. The perfect parallel here is Isandhlwana. Ian Knight has perpetuated the myth that the British Martini-Henrys jammed or malfunctioned, which is what caused D Company to roll up like a mat and for the British line to collapse. But according to earlier works, such as Donald Morris' superb "The Washing of the Spears," the senior British officer who survived, Horace Smith-Dorrien (yes...THAT Horace Smith-Dorrien!), repeatedly says that the soldiers could not access their ammunition. This was true...although not in the way the British newspapers reported it at the time. They said the ammo was banded down in boxes, which it was most certainly not. What then-Lieutenant Smith-Dorrien meant was that the one of the two Quartermasters, namely Quartermaster Pullen, refused to allow access to his ammunition boxes for D Company when D Company's assigned Quartermaster, Quartermaster Bloomfield, was shot and killed with a Zulu musket. As for the answer to the question "why didn't that anonymous soldier in D Company just pick up a few boxes from Bloomfield's stores?" Bloomfield was killed very early in the battle, during a stage where that anonymous soldier likely would not have felt enough pressure to start smashing open Bloomfield's stores (which is what eventually happened, though by then it was too late) and instead to go to the suviving Quartermaster Pullen. Also, as you point out, if the rifles were to blame, why didn't they malfunction repeatedly during other battles? In the case of Isandhlwana, Knight would have us believe that the Martini-Henry jammed like your average Lorcin pistol there but performed flawlessly thereafter and also before. But not only do we have the advantage of knowing that they served the British well in the other battles, but we also have the knowledge that the very Martini-Henrys picked up from Isandhlwana performed for the Zulus flawlessly afterward (most notably during the Battle of Gingindlovu, but also during the Battles of Hlobane, Kambula, Eshowe, and to a lesser degree Ulundi...NOT Rorke's Drift). Either way, I'm rather tired of seeing the modern historians taking the attitude of "when in doubt, blame the rifle." Whether it be Little Big Horn, Isandhlwana, or even Stalingrad (that Mosin-Nagants could somehow adapt to the cold better than Karabiner 98k's had to be some kind of new, incredibly silly low in documentary film-making), I'm starting to see more and more of this and not liking one bit of it. |
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Alibi |
It's all the fault of the equipment! | ||
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I think we are victims of writers that sell their sensationalistic "history" to producers and publishers, for the consumption of armchair historians, rather than scholarly researched history. The truth of these events are probably thought too complex for the average viewer/reader to absorb and in taking the simplistic interpretation of events the production/publication can sell their products and they probably don't care if they're misrepresenting events or just plain wrong. I was involved with events or incidents that when reported in the local "prestigious" newspaper I didn't recognize as the same event I was witness to. These inaccurately reported/written stories convinced me that writers are out to sell their writings, and newspapers are in the business to sell newspapers. In my view newspaper publishers don't see themselves as in the business of communicating the truth, but are in the newspaper business selling newspapers, which puts them in the same league as The Star and The National Inquirer. I saw an interview with a publisher of one of these weekly sensationalistic publications and he stated quite clearly that his publication is for entertainment and that he will publish anything that sells the product. Writers are in the writing business and are not necessarily historians even if they are writing about history. As a consequence there are two general types of printed material. There are the illustrated publications that provide about twenty minutes reading time on a topic and as many illustrations as they can find related or not, to the single topic. In reading these short articles it is apparent that virtually no research has gone into developing the historical facts. It is also apparent that certain topics like disasters or controversial people sell better, especially if the story perpetuates myths. These articles tend to explain events in the most simplistic terms as they don't have room to do anything else. The complexities of a battle or events simply cannot be adequately explained in the space or time allotted. The other type of printed matter is well researched, has references and may have a few illustrations. A scholar and historian that is interested in the truth of events will find these short stories and myth perpetuating single point of view graphic presentations as seen on The History Channel quite distracting. The frustration arises out of the question "Why can't these people get this right?" The unfortunate part about it is that the people that publish and produce these products somehow get credit for being historical authorities. They obtain credibility simply by the fact their product is a financial success. Besides the financial rewards of selling their product they will simply explain away any inconsistencies by stating that they are only representing a single point of view, that it was for entertainment and not necessarily for the truth of the events. Which means it is incumbent on us to decide what we want in the way of history. For most people the first exposure to history is in school where there are certain requirements to provide instruction in history to people that could care less about any subject except how to get out of school. For some of us history is interesting and the intricate details of events are important. For many there is a more or less passing interest in history that is more related to equipment or uniforms as they relate to events, especially war. Armchair historians seem to be in the habit of getting emotionally involved with people and events. In fact they very often write or speak of these people or events in the most intimate and emotional of terms. I have seen in a couple of forums people discussing the merits of the M-4 series tank that they somehow associate General George Patton with responsibility for this particular equipment. Apparently there was an article or something published that purports that Patton somehow influenced the adoption of that particular tank. Armchair historians and forum contributors that have taken up the crusade to prove the M-4 medium tank was a pariah to tank crews occasionally mention this myth and belittle Patton for the error of his supposed influence. The fact of the matter is that Patton was the Colonel commanding the Second Cavalry Regiment at the time tank development and experimentation was proceeding. Tanks were being developed by the Infantry Branch and Ordnance Department and Col. Patton had nothing to do with the design of tanks. He and others certainly advocated the tactical use of tanks, as he used them in Europe that may have caused the Ordnance Department to provide a highly mobile and mechanically reliable tanks to meet the perceived tactical environment. To expand upon this theme a bit there seems to be a tendency to separate equipment from users and to criticize the equipment without taking into consideration the many variables of the training, experience, leadership and tactics of the users. A rifle, a tank or any piece of equipment does not function without an operator or crew. It is far too easy and much too simplistic to place the blame on equipment for success or failure on the battlefield. Writers and producers are "creative" types that by nature are liberal in their outlook on events and people. Liberals by nature see war and the military as unnecessary, after all wars "hurt" people. They are in the business of writing or producing something that makes a profit, and as with newspapers there is no profits in letting the truth get in the way of a good story. There is no point in criticizing writers and producers for what they do, but there certainly is a point to telling people that pay the fare by reading or watching these historical misrepresentations that they are being led astray. I have occasionally thought I would like to run a poll to ask people what their source of military history is. I am afraid that illustrated periodicals will be the source of information for the majority of people with an interest in history and that books will be in the minority as a primary source. Perhaps it is that people with rudimentary knowledge contribute to forums are in the majority and the minority are those that seek truth and understanding of history. |
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