No. 4s with dual peep flip sights?

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Epeeman	No. 4s with dual peep flip sights?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 271 (06/04/09 09:16 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None The only No. 4s (or 5s) I've owned have had the rear sights with the large battle peep that flipped up to provide the adjustable ladder type, smaller, peep. But I was looking at a No. 4 with the simpler dual peep, 300-600 yard, sight. Since I never buy a rifle I don't intend to shoot, I'm wondering about how these two-position sights work on a No. 4. Do you have to hold very high or low to compensate for not having elevation adjustment? Is either the 300 or 600 yard setting close enough for target work at 100 yards with commercial .303 ammo? Thanks! "To the Union: Next to Our Liberty, Most Dear!"
mh47		#1	[-]
Posts: 1281 (06/05/09 02:49 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	My No4 mkI* has the 300/600 flip sight. Shoots about 4 inches high at 50 yards with Privi Partisan ammo, sight flipped to the 300 position. Your results may vary. Have yet to try it at 100 yards but I suspect the bullet is still traveling upward in it's arc at that point.
Epeeman		#2	[-]
Posts: 274 (06/05/09 08:58 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Interesting. Looking at ballistics charts for the .303, it looks like a 174g bullet is very flat from 50 yards to 100 yards- I suppose I would be hitting four inches high (with your rifle) at 100 yards. Has anyone else used a dual ap sight at 100 yard targets? "To the Union: Next to Our Liberty, Most Dear!"
Ed Novak		#3	[-]
Posts: 1960 (06/06/09 01:15 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	IIRC, the 300yd battle sight aperture is "calibrated" for the bayonet being attached, the 600yd aperture is not. NRA Endowment member LECS #2
bambam91		#4	[-]
Posts: 122 (06/07/09 12:50 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ed: Since you a font of knowledge, perhaps you know if the MkI (I believe that is the correct nomenclature for the adjustable ladder type sights found on #4MkI, I*, etc... rifles.) rear sight was also "calibrated" with an attached bayonet or not? Thanks.
Ed Novak		#5	[-]
Posts: 1966 (06/07/09 02:02 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	bambam91 wrote: Ed: Since you a font of knowledge, perhaps you know if the MkI (I believe that is the correct nomenclature for the adjustable ladder type sights found on #4MkI, I*, etc... rifles.) rear sight was also "calibrated" with an attached bayonet or not? Thanks. I don't have a straight-forward answer for you. The Mk. II backsight information seems always to state that the 300yd "battle peep/battle sight" is graduated for use with bayonet attached (while the 600yd aperture is intended to be used without bayonet). The Mk. I, III and IV information never (in my reading) mentions anything about bayonet/no bayonet but always refers to the "battle peep/battle sight" as the coarse aperture on the sight base so perhaps (?) the concept of the "battle sight" being intended for use with bayonet can be inferred? Further, the Mk. I, III and IV sighting information is for the military round to strike .75" above point of aim using the 200yd slide aperture setting and for the bullet to strike 3" above point of aim with the "battle sight" at 100yds. I would infer, but cannot state unequivocally then that the "battle sight" on any No.4 rifle's back sight is graduated for use with bayonet attached. A moot point, I suppose, except in re-enacting live-fire situations or from simple curiousity where the bayonet would be attached "just to see...". If my "reading between the lines" is correct, I understand that there was some surprise during the trials of the No.4 that the little spike bayonet would have so much effect on the newer heavier barreled No. 4 (heavier than the No.1). NRA Endowment member LECS #2
TP		#6	[-]
Posts: 867 (06/08/09 10:10 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ed is absolutely correct. In British service regulations said that the bayonet was to be fitted when within 300 yards of the enemy. Seems silly to civilian, peace-time shooters but it is a fact. That being said, it was not always done in actual combat at long range (over 100 yards).
Metaleer		#7	[-]
Posts: 27 (06/09/09 07:12 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Epeeman great question. I agree with Ed and TP. Ed - Thank you for your insight and knowledge. Having you in this forum is like having a highly skilled British armorer and historian watching over us. Much of the knowledge that you bring could not be gained without great effort and time. Again thank you.
bradtx		#8	[-]
Posts: 1567 (06/09/09 10:13 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Epeeman, The two position Mk.II can work pretty well. One thing that can be confusing is that the front sight's height may be different from one rifle to another. Rather than buy new front sights I just remember what the sight picture is for each rifle. For example my back up comp rifle needs the front sight block obscured by the backsight, while my Savage is properly centered in the backsight. The mounted spike bayonet does make a difference, but I found it odd that a heavier No.7 or No.9 didn't change POI hardly any (if at all) over the spike bayo. Brad
Ed Novak		#9	[-]
Posts: 1971 (06/09/09 08:42 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I am hardly an accomplished historian and nowhere near being "a highly skilled British armorer"; not even qualified to be an apprentice but thanks for the undeserved compliments. bradtx is light-years ahead of me and I've learned a lot from him over the past years. What I know about the LEs is a smattering but I've learned it from reading both books and on the fora so I am simply more of a "repeater" of information, when the opportunity arises. I will add a caution here, now that bradtx has shown and I am certain that he will agree; avoid all Maltby rifles. NRA Endowment member LECS #2
bradtx		#10	[-]
Posts: 1569 (06/10/09 09:10 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thanks for the compliment, Ed, and as usual you're being far too modest. Oh yeah, them Maltbys! Brad
Metaleer		#11	[-]
Posts: 28 (06/10/09 09:26 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Then thank you to both of you. I love my Enfields and shoot them often. It is nice to have a place to go for information and help. Question: "avoid all Maltby rifles. " I presently own 3 Enfields and am working towards collecting others. One Longbranch and two Farzakerley. Is there a problem with these rifles out of Maltby? I am working on buying a nice Savage right now.
AlleyOop007		#12	[-]
Posts: 46 (06/10/09 04:06 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I have Savages, a Long Branch and a Faz, and I am also curious to know about the Maltbys since I would like to expand my collection of No. 4s. AlleyOop007 NRA Life Member since 1969 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "History does not entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
Ed Novak		#13	[-]
Posts: 1974 (06/10/09 08:47 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Maltbys is pigs in a poke. Generally the least well finished, roughest appearing of the No. 4s. The average Maltby tends to have a finish that says that the armorers either didn't have the time or didn't care all that much about how the rifle looked. Having said those things, Brad and I have found that some of these Maltbys have been surprisingly very consistently accurate rifles despite their appearance, wartime production and previous service. "Lucky penny" sort of thing; show me a pallet of No.4s and I'll go digging for a Maltby. NRA Endowment member LECS #2
AlleyOop007		#14	[-]
Posts: 47 (06/11/09 12:00 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ed Novak wrote: Maltbys is pigs in a poke. Generally the least well finished, roughest appearing of the No. 4s. The average Maltby tends to have a finish that says that the armorers either didn't have the time or didn't care all that much about how the rifle looked. Having said those things, Brad and I have found that some of these Maltbys have been surprisingly very consistently accurate rifles despite their appearance, wartime production and previous service. "Lucky penny" sort of thing; show me a pallet of No.4s and I'll go digging for a Maltby. Thanks very much for the tip. I've been on the lookout for a good British made WWII No. 4 since my only "Englander" is my Irish Contract Faz No.4 Mk 2. AlleyOop007 NRA Life Member since 1969 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "History does not entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
bradtx		#15	[-]
Posts: 1570 (06/11/09 11:17 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'll help ya, Ed...doesn't seem like the two of us will be able to collect all of them, anyway! AlleyOop007, Maltby's method to speed production in late '42, or thereabouts was to stop things like fine finishing their barrel and action bodies. Early Maltbys are quite attractive. If you wnat to go specifically for a Maltby all of the s/ns will start with a '1', for example BC12345. An interesting Maltby to look for, other than a (T) model would be one of the '44s that for some unexplained reason are marked with a star () like a North American Mk.I, yet are Mk.I configuration. Brad
Ed Novak		#16	[-]
Posts: 1977 (06/13/09 05:10 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Brad: I was not aware of the * marking. Thanks. But why was it done? Wonder how much consternation that * caused? NRA Endowment member LECS #2
bradtx		#17	[-]
Posts: 1571 (06/14/09 08:32 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ed, Nobody knows the 'why'...yet. Seems to span about 50K serial numbers in 1944, but not sequentialy except for perhaps a few at a time. Actual number of those stamped with the star are thought to be moderately low, but really that's another unknown. Brad Last Edited By: bradtx 06/14/09 08:37 AM. Edited 1 times.
Ed Novak		#18	[-]
Posts: 1979 (06/14/09 11:33 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Bradtx: Bazookavespa? NRA Endowment member LECS #2
bradtx		#19	[-]
Posts: 1572 (06/14/09 04:00 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ed, That's the oddest piece of military hardware I've run across. All I know is that it's Italian, perhaps WWII era. Brad PS I looked it up and the webpage I found it on was wrong. Here's some info: http://modern-war.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_bazooka_vespa_in_combat Last Edited By: bradtx 06/14/09 04:03 PM. Edited 1 times.
Ed Novak		#20	[-]
Posts: 1981 (06/14/09 10:21 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I should buy some lottery tickets. I looked at that photo and thought "recoilless rifle on a Vespa" then a second thought was "bazooka on a Vespa" and just about fell out of my chair when I visited the site and found my guess spot on. Sometimes, old age/memory works ok. NRA Endowment member LECS #2