Lee Enfield P1903 bayonet markings

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tjp353	Lee Enfield P1903 bayonet markings	Lead	[-]
Posts: 4 (06/21/09 01:58 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None I recently bought a Lee Enfield 1903 pattern bayonet. It was first issued in December 1905, with reissue dates of '07 and '08. I'm struggling to identify the regimental markings which are 'E S' over '349', stamped on the top side of the pommel (at the end of the slot), instead of the usual right-hand side. Could this be a variation of 'E. SR' for 'East Surrey Regiment'? Another number that I can't identify is a large '2763' which is stamped on the left wood grip and also halfway along the leather scabbard, next to the seam. Does anyone know what this is for?
m1 talker		#1	[-]
Posts: 6835 (06/21/09 03:33 PM) Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Idon't know the answer to your first question, but the 2763 is simply the serial number of the bayonet an the scabbard. It may be also the serial number of the rifle it was issued with. Curt
oldsmithy		#2	[-]
Posts: 919 (06/21/09 03:53 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	maybe East Sussex? or it maybe Indian they used the 03 a lot longer than most prefering it over the 07 Carl www.old-smithy.info
tjp353		#3	[-]
Posts: 5 (06/22/09 12:02 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thanks for the help. I thought the 2763 might have been a serial number but wasn't 100% sure, as I didn't think it was typical of British Army markings (are Indian serials stamped like this?). Were bayonets produced for India marked the same as those supplied to the British Army? The reason I ask is it has all the typical British markings - Royal Cipher over ER, over 12 05 with '07 & '08 reissue dates. On the reverse is the Government's broad arrow over Enfield's 'EFD', and the bend test X, along with a few Enfield inspection stamps. Also, the 'E S 349' on the pommel has been lined out. The only date stamp on the scabbard is '08, which is possibly when the bayonet and this scabbard came together and got their 2763 serial number. Could it have been issued to the British Army in Dec 1905 and then supplied to India in '07 or '08, when the British Army introduced the P1907?
oldsmithy		#4	[-]
Posts: 920 (06/22/09 07:06 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Typically Indian 03's are reworked and have an all blue finish and a IG stamp but not all by a long way. they were issued UK 03's and as far as i know never made them themselves taking old UK issued blades and keeping them in service. the serial on the grip coudl be a leter police number but i dont know. I have seen 07's marked liek this but not 03's Carl www.old-smithy.info
tjp353		#5	[-]
Posts: 6 (06/22/09 12:37 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'll keep a look out for bayonets with similar markings and hopefully, eventually, may find out who marks their bayonets like this. Regarding P1907s, I've got a Wilkinson '07 (from Jan '16), with no clearance hole - which I believe was introduced in April '16. The strange thing about it is the blade is 3/16" longer than normal (17 3/16"). When I bought it it was in a big pile of '07s (all the same price) and wasn't sold as being anything special. It's got all the typical British Army markings. Are you aware of any genuine '07s with this anomaly? There are pictures of it on my account / images section. I didn't think this was worth starting a new topic.
oldsmithy		#6	[-]
Posts: 923 (06/23/09 06:44 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	probably slack quality control, never measured my pile or compared the lengths Carl www.old-smithy.info
woftam aus		#7	[-]
Posts: 172 (06/23/09 11:40 PM) active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	tjp, although E. is usually associated with East let me throw up a couple of other possibilities. E.S.R.E. - Establishment for Engineer Service - perhaps yours is a contraction ? Engineer Regiments are made up of Squadrons - perhaps Engineer Squadron ?
tjp353		#8	[-]
Posts: 14 (08/23/09 12:03 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I picked up an Enfield made P1903 from an auction recently that was described as a 'Yeomanry bayonet'. It's a typical 1903 bayonet & scabbard apart from the addition of a small loop or slot stitched into the seam, near the chape. It appears to be for an extra strap to secure that end. Research on the net hasn't been particularly fruitful. Stamped on the pommel is 'L. D Y'. Assuming the regimental markings are British, this could stand for 'Leicestershire and Derbyshire (Prince Albert's Own) Yeomanry' - a regiment of the Territorial Army, formed in 1957 by the amalgamation of The Leicestershire Yeomanry (Prince Albert's Own) and The Derbyshire Yeomanry. Could the P1903 bayonet still have been in TA service in 1957, or is it likely 'L. D Y' is an Indian (or another foreign) yeomanry regiment? The bayonet has no foreign marking but the brown scabbard has 'M. A co - - 13' over '5 14' (date?) on the leather and 'I broad arrow M' on the chape and locket, near the staples (in the usual place). Is this Lithgow, Australia (who use MA) or someone else? Any thoughts or info on any of this would be much appreciated. Cheers.
oldsmithy		#9	[-]
Posts: 932 (08/23/09 07:12 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The indians used a scabbard with two leather straps to attach a shovel hilt to, similar to the UK 08 pattern frogs, the scabbard could be one of these with only one strap left - my example has neither strap left. THe UK territorial army is part of the normal army and uses exactly the same equipment, much the same as the national guard so the 03 in service in 57 is not likley so probably Indian 03 markings as well Carl www.old-smithy.info
tjp353		#10	[-]
Posts: 15 (08/23/09 03:48 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Cheers for the info. Here's a picture of the scabbard. I thought the slot was a repair patch at first, but there's no damage and the leather and stitching is identical to the rest of the scabbard. It forms a 'bridge' for a half inch wide strap to pass through. Unfortunately it didn't come with a frog.
TP		#11	[-]
Posts: 901 (08/24/09 02:34 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Actually, your scabbard is probably British made and used and is intended to carry the helve for the entrenching tool as Oldsmithy describes the Implement, Intrenching, pattern 1908 which was adapted by the British in 1908. A picture and description on the P03 bayonet frog (part of the Bandolier Equipment, Pattern 1903) can be seen on the site "Karkee Web" at: http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1903/pics/1903_equipment_carriers.html You will need to scroll a little more than half way down the page to see the frog. The "Carrier, entrenching tool" for the P03 Pattern 1903 set can be seen at: http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1903/pics/1903_associated_equipment.html with a picture of a soldier wearing the carrier and helve attached to the scabbard beside the carrier's picture. Unfortunately, the bayonet scabbard is obscured by the soldier's haversack, but you will get the general idea. Keep in mind that some British troops still carried the P03 bayonet after issue of the P08 webbing set and into WW1 so you can look at the same site's information on the P08 webbing as well.
TP		#12	[-]
Posts: 902 (08/24/09 02:43 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The regimental "'E S'" probably represent "The East Surrey Regiment".
oldsmithy		#13	[-]
Posts: 933 (08/25/09 06:45 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	is there evidence of another strap location further up, i was looking for a ,picture of mine but it isnt on my site Carl www.old-smithy.info
tjp353		#14	[-]
Posts: 16 (08/25/09 09:58 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	TP. Thanks for the link. It looks like my scabbard was made by the Mills Equipments company in May '14. It's missing frog was probably the plain slip-on type, instead of that illustrated - as the scabbard has no frog stud. oldsmithy. No, that's the only strap.
TP		#15	[-]
Posts: 904 (08/25/09 10:17 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hmmm, there should be one. Wonder why it is missing it's frog stud?
tjp353		#16	[-]
Posts: 17 (08/26/09 03:21 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It's a similar scabbard to this one:- I thought it's only the 1888 pattern scabbards that have studs (which are often used on the P1903 bayonet) while the P1903 scabbards are stud-less.