12GA 3 & 3/4 (12ga FH) in Modern Shotguns Forum

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12GA 3 & 3/4 (12ga FH)

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HUBEL458		#181	[-]
Posts: 166 Nov 4 12 12:27 AM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth, with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun. Good news, I got few samples of first production run of my 585HE cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity. They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace. He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000 with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each if you get in on the first shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each, so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible. Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram. This case can be used in different style guns., Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies. Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also. Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites, we just got done. 　 I tested 585HE moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti, etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Real tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight. First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped, and some with stamp and ones I made on the right.. Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder, they don't need a special holder. In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture, which were real strong cases, that worked great with max loads.. The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners. He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime we get money built up for an order..Ed
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nothernug		#182	[-]
Posts: 13338 Nov 10 12 10:15 PM Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I think it's just great to see this thread still rolling along after all these years. But, I have to call something to attention. Re the Greener Martini slug gun mentioned a few posts back, please keep in mind the site rules about no permanent alterations to original period (C&R) weapons. I don't know anything near enough to know if a barrel change can on this weapon can be reversed to restore the weapon to original condition. It seems to me it would be so as long as no other changes were made. Also, if any changes made are done to a reproduction weapon, please state if the weapon in discussion is in fact a repro. In future, if referencing a historical weapon, please state what changes were made and the steps taken to make it capable of returning it to original condition. If there are any permanent modifications made to a period weapon, remember, you cannot post that or discuss the modifications here. Not trying to throw a wet blanket on this, as I said, I think it's great but, let's be sure to stay w/in the site rules. Ok? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. Sam Adams
HUBEL458		#183	[-]
Posts: 166 Nov 19 12 3:39 AM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I have 12ga barrel, lever and original stock that can go on the Greener, I didn't change anything that would stop them from going back on.. Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach. Nice looking gun. Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups. Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal. Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW, Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got. And one 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220 20ga, with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets measured about 2 inches. Four shots in two inches.Ed
HUBEL458		#184	[-]
Posts: 166 Dec 6 12 1:50 PM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns. Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have 12ga barrel for it.. Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting with putting on a thumbhole stock. Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links, if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed
HUBEL458		#185	[-]
Posts: 166 Jan 2 13 5:08 AM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad. You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad. And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad. CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds. And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads. . It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal. It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length. Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up. There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is 54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough to find good simple combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over 2000 fps. Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass. Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture.. Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta, and the Magtech 199 shown above. Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom. We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads with a interchangeable chokes. Ed
HUBEL458		#186	[-]
Posts: 166 Jan 14 13 6:18 PM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load. We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner. Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture.. We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman 12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit. I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the unneeded front of the sear and metal above it in the bottom, giving room to the back, for cases that are 3.9" plus overall loaded length. Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets, Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok, and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base. As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie. There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400. Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World put these together. Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder. It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers like RE-17 which is much slower than shotgun powders. . It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the rate of burn deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging peak pressures down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE-33 the basecup only expanded .002". And they are thinner basecup than some..Ed
HUBEL458		#187	[-]
Posts: 166 Jan 31 13 3:13 PM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller 45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them. This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum. More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500 they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on right is factory SPW. Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this 12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off. That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders. Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier. 　　 Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585 barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed 　 As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up 24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed
HUBEL458		#188	[-]
Posts: 166 Feb 26 13 1:24 PM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	First picture is of a nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock. Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead roundball with section copper tube, wads compressed inside, BPGS seal on bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work. Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4 ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga. Just glue top card in. Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going about 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup. Next, Mossy 390 bolt action, with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun, and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed
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HUBEL458		#189	[-]
Posts: 166 Mar 16 13 8:41 PM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length as 3' plastic crimped little long. Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall 10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga. Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball slug shown above. Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used in wads as opposed to fullbore. Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about 4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have. And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel. Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads. Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs. Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load .Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get 85% we only need 2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi instead of 65,000...Ed
HUBEL458		#190	[-]
Posts: 166 Mar 29 13 12:30 AM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs. The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case. Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded only a little, and those cases are soft ones. We have big bunch of the sabots here now. All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up. With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting. Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean.. The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness. Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds. Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit... You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun), that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots. It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups, miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best. Get with me for sabots -- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228 THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage. Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included, with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed
HUBEL458		#191	[-]
Posts: 166 Mar 30 13 2:37 PM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots with different slugs and bullets. Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long 700 gr -- a blunt solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr. 2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft 1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie Gunworks-- 400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around. Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574 " to .577" Minies. If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585" 440gr and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller. Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture with white felt wad just fits in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp. I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759 I'd use is Alliant Steel in smaller amounts, 50gr Steel, in 3", and thicker wads and cushions like shown. To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping. You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good. After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the sabot holds slugs tight back into the base. Speeds over 2000 fps will be gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. . More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights. Hit. paper plate at 50 yds. As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun), that get to peak pressure slower, thus can use larger amounts, can get to higher velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much. For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best. FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50. For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62. Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems. In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5" I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using 480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them. Get ones .574" to .577" Interested in sabots--- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228 THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage. Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included. Or $20 for 50 postage included.. .Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order. to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr.. We want you to help test and find what is best....Ed
HUBEL458		#192	[-]
Posts: 166 Apr 4 13 1:08 AM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr 58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots. Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to get them and get loads working. A little levity in this process.Ed
HUBEL458		#193	[-]
Posts: 166 Apr 9 13 1:36 AM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights...... First and most important is our sabots fitting real tight like the Accutip Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots., But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum cushion wads. The 440gr Minie slug of .575" in the 3" cases is the one I used as a base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF. Using 3" soft base cases. Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug. For 440gr max of 55gr Steel For 400gr max of 57gr Steel For 360gr max of 59gr Steel For 490gr max of 52gr Steel. For 510gr max of 49gr Steel For 540gr max of 47gr Steel. I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting. Many of you need to get in on the fun. Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press. Earler I showed the 585HE Falling block with pistol grip and the light barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added 2 extra springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock for Ruger 77 in 585HE. And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that. Will be one of only 2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore.. Whoppee.....Ed
HUBEL458		#194	[-]
Posts: 166 Apr 30 13 7:18 PM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The sabots aren't moving and I got to get funds out of them asap, emergency bill coming... And seeing as how we're low on slugs to send with the sabots, in big numbers, and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots and set up so they can be selling the sabots, we will try selling them fast in next few weeks . So to get these moving out fast and getting tested, and we pay our bills,we will be having sale on just the sabots, in larger amounts only. We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so the guys can see what we have found that works. Because of the shipping costs and boxes that 2, 3, or 4 bags of sabots fit in, that has an affordable postage cost to pay, we have to sell these in 200, 300, and 400 size orders.. So, 200 sabots $47 Shipping included, 300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping incl. Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68 plus shipping. There was dozens of guys the last few years all over the internet that bought undersize junk, that wanted good sabots and complained that the ones they bought elsewhere didn't work...... I haven't heard from most of them, So guys see if you got time, please help us out here..MO, Check, Paypal..Ed
HUBEL458		#195	[-]
Posts: 166 May 7 13 1:02 AM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case, next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture.. Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in. Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case. Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots that will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them.
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