Quote:
Don't forget the other advantage of the 6.5 and 6.7--- weight. Twice that of the standard SS109 loading in the 5.56.

Reply:

This is the most common mistake that the Big Bore boys always make, i.e. equating weight of the bigger bullet to the smaller bullet. The smaller bullet can be driven at higher velocities and although its weight may be less its ballistic co-efficient and the ability to penetrate because of its smaller diameter often way out penetrates the bigger heavier bullet.

Lets take a look at one of the most dramatic and outstanding cases and experiments of all time in the big bore v/s small bore debate. Back in the 1950's the greatest gun smith of them all P.O. Ackely shot holes in 1/2 inch hardened armor plate using the .220 Swift with of all things a 48 grain soft point bullet v/s the 30-06 with a hardened steel penetrator core. Guess which round failed to penetrate the 1/2 in armored plate. It was the 30-06 armor piercing round.

The moral of the story is that small diameter bullets traveling at high velocity usually out penetrate the slower bigger bullets, the exact opposite of what most people have been led to believe by the moronic no nothing gun writers.

W.D.M. Bell proved you could actually shoot clear an elephant from end to end using nothing more than the 6.5 Mannlicher cartridge using a 160 grain solid bullet traveling only at about 2,300 fps. To achieve the same penetration the .45 cal elephant rifles had to shoot at least a 500 grain bullet traveling at the same speed. The spectacular and consistent failure of the .458 Winchester over the years has been due to it often failing to break the 2,000 fps. mark out of 22 inch barrels.

This lead to the development of the .458 Lott cartridge with its higher velocity over the anemic .458 Winchester.

The main advantage of the big bore has and always will be one of psychology. If it kicks the snot out of you it there for must be more powerful. Of course the 1/10 or less of an inch difference in diameter is absolutely meaningless but you will never convince any of the big bore boys of that fact. The psychological high they get will not let them ever see or understand reality. Poorly placed shots do not kill and often do not even incapacitate no matter what caliber one is using but the big bore boys live in fantasy world that lets them believe that even a poorly placed shot with a big bore will stop anything on earth.

One of the biggest myths of all time was the .45acp myth. In reality it is perhaps one of the very worst of combat pistol cartridges. Its hard kick and very low penetration make it one of the worst of sub-machine gun rounds to boot.

After WWII they U.S. Army conducted test trials with a Canadian produced John Igles High Power 9mm pistol (See Clives book "The Igles Diamond".) The results of this test astonished the test people when the 9mm actually penetrated a steel helmet out to 125 yards and probably could have done so even farther if the skill of the shooters and the accuracy of the gun could have enabled it to hit the helmet at farther ranges. Contrast this to the .45 acp that was used in the same tests with a way heavier bullet ( 225 grain 45 acp v/s the 124 grain 9mm bullet). The .45acp actually bounced off the helmet at a mere 35 yards proving as the range increased the .45 acp was pretty much of a useless combat cartridge.

Now I know all this sounds like heresy because so very few people actually test these cartridges themselves but I have seen the .45acp fail to stop even a 100 pound white tale deer at less than 25 yards and after having been shot 5 times. Again a failure of penetration . Not so the 9mm. It kills at the same range very well indeed and this is from first hand experience on live animals i.e. the White tail deer.

Again the bullet weight argument holds no water when comparing the heavier and bigger .45 acp to the smaller but higher velocity 9mm. The same holds true of rifles as well.

In conclusion the newest 6.5 and 6.7 fantasy cartridges are just that a fantasy in the minds of most people because they will always believe bigger is more deadlier than smaller.

Quote:

If you really want all the scoup you should go and read about the Grendel cartridge at the Grendel forum. You can find it by doing a 6.5 Google search. There is a real reason why the people behind the 6.8 SPC refused an invitation to go head to head against the Grendel at a Blackwater match, they new they would loose. There is also a reason why the 6.5 bullet is winning a lot of National Match meets, it is because the 6.5mm bullet is just about a perfect design for accuracy and down range velocity.

Reply:

The Grenel is not winning long range National Matches. The 129 grain bullet at 2,500 fps is totally inferior to the .308 with its 168 grain bullet at the same velocity. The .308 168 grain retains its velocity at long range much better because of the heavier weight bullet.

I think more practical experience enables one to cut through the hype and gun writer propaganda. Its usually amounts to a "follow the leader" mentality. Old pro's know better and this is certainly the case with the 6.5 cartridges that have come and went in the last several years.

The factories that have produced the various 6.5mm cartridges always seem to "get it wrong" and always manage to "screw up" a really good cartridge i.e. the 6.5mm bore guns. If they had taken a lesson from history they would have found out that when Remington produced the .260 cartridge they "should have" given it a fast twist barrel and provided some good heavy hunting bullet loadings. But what did they do, why they tried to make it into a "mini magnum" by giving it a slow twist barrel and providing the lighter weight bullets. My gosh do any of these marketing people these days actually hunt or know anything at all about cartridge history, obviously not. The old loadings from the late 1800's and early 1900's provided a long heavy 160 grain bullet at moderate velocities as found in the 6.5 Mannlicher cartridges, both rimmed and rimless, and the 6.5 Swedish Mauser. All with fast twist barrels and long heavy bullets.

Now lets take a look at some recent cartridges like the Grendel and the latest rage on the Nation Match line, the 6.5 Creedmore. Again they make the classic mistake of using light weight bullets, not the heavy 160 grain pills and the ammo and bullet producers provide little or nothing even for the hand-loader. I currently can only find one 160 round nose hunting bullet in 6.5mm as produced by Hornady. Where, I ask you, are the long heavy match grade bullets for this caliber or some good spitzer 160 grain hunting bullets. Short of the very small custom bullet makers you will not find them from the big three i.e. Sierra, Speer or Hornady.

Long heavy bullets in any caliber, providing the velocity is right, will shoot better in the wind than any of the new light bullet loadings in the "latest and greatest" new 6.5mm calibers. Until we get a good heavy, match grade bullet in these calibers and shot out of a new cartridge at a decent velocity they will be inferior to the older 6.5 calibers such as the 6.5-06, 6.5-284, and 6.5 Swedish.

Very short cartridges like the 6.5 Grenal that were designed to be jammed into the short action of the standard length AR15 magazine must use lighter weight bullets to keep the velocity up into the medium range. Heavy 6.5 bullets would not achieve enough velocity so we end up with a cartridge that is "straight jacketed" into using the light weight bullets, all of which give inferior penetration and inferior long range wind bucking accuracy as compared to the longer, heavier bullets, nor do the lighter weight bullets hold their velocity a extremely long range like the older heavy 6.5mm 160 grain bullets that worked so well on the battle fields of World War I and World War II. Again a complete lack of knowledge on what worked in the past

One other note is that the 6.5 calibers do not get the long barrel life of say the .308 Winchester which can often get as much as 8,000 rounds of barrel life on the target ranges. Compare this to the 4,000 round barrel life of the "latest and greatest" 6.5 Creedmore. A fact conveniently ignored by the "gun writer, ammo hawks".

Technically the 6.5 cartridges are extremely accurate because of their lower recoil but the .308's accuracy is excellent also. Considering the longer barrel life I will stick with the .308 because re-barreling a gun these days is anything but cheap.