what you yall think?
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mosinsniper |
does restoration hurt the value? |
Lead | |
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I have seeing some mosins at the gun shows here in town and at some of the collector stores. Alot that I have seen have new blueing and the stocks have been
redone. I think they look good in most cases but they are being sold at closer to new rifle prices. There was one; m-44 factory original except the dark black
blue job and the stock was blonde. I thought it looked good but it didn't have the mosi look they we are use to. I couln't get past the 550.00 price
tag but I was wondering how everyone feels about such things. Does the price of new makeup on the rifle warrant the increase in price? I'm torn between
just taking off the cosmoline and leaving as it or the makeup job. I can see good things in both cases but unsure at the moment.
what you yall think? |
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zeebill |
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Ahh yes the word "restoration" Used many different ways in gun collecting I am afraid it can mean good and bad too. Restoring the proper sight to a
rifle missing it good. Refinishing the wood and re-blue to modern standards bad. Then there are those misguided people who will pay top dollar for that blue
and shiny finish and later upon resale find no one in there right mind that is a serious collector will pay anything for what they cherished so much and
consider the piece ruined in collector value.
If you haven't figured it out by now I hate the word restoration and find it to have far too many meanings to people who collect guns. Replacing and fixing missing or broken parts is just fine with me as I shoot most of what I collect but the rest of it is just personal ego gratification at the expense of the rifle being "restored". Mine is shinier than yours sort of stuff which does little to help the poor rifle and everything for the collectors ego. Light cleaning and mechanical maintenance can for the most part not hurt a rifle or its value and shooting it can some time improve the bore but runs the risk of breakage. There is where I stop in anything with Milsurp rifles and I think most collectors will feel the same way. Bill |
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dangson |
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It may have been "restored" by the Soviets. I have a very blond, deep black blued 1948 dated M44. I used to think it was original but if you look
real close, it was sanded and the numbers ground and restamped. It was one of the "in the wrap" M44's that were on sale a few years ago. I have
seen a few others at shows etc. $550? I don't think so. I don't like the rifles that have been obviously restored. I have reshellacked one of my
M91-59's though. It is my deer rifle and the finish was nealy gone from use. Now it is way too shiney.
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mosinsniper |
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yea thats what I was thinking. If I was going to spend that kind of money I would opt for an original sniper or some such. This guy that had the rifle was
really proud of it and was sure it was going to sell. It probably will but I don't think it will go to a collector but someone that just wants a new rifle
with an old date.
When I see something that has been "chopped" or shoved in one of those plastic / rubber type hunting stock I don't care for it but this was just enough that it was mostly all cosmetic. It probably couldn't go back to the Russian style of color or blue process but nothing other than that had been changed so it got me wondering what other collectors and shooters thought. |
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Pahtu |
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At a local show, a seller had a 1943 M44 in a laminated stock for sale. He wanted $335.00 - I picked up the carbine, looked at the price tag, looked the
carbine over for any interesting stamps & then put it down. The seller asked if I knew anything about MN's & I said yes - Before he could educate
me more about the piece, I kindy told him have a nice day and moved on.
Restorations are fun to fix up when you find a bubba'd piece, but are rarely worth the time & expense of doing so and you never really increase the value of such pieces - It is worth the sum of it's parts all said and done. I am close to completing two restored MN's & will post them this Summer - They came out nice, but are not worth as much as original condition MN's Pahtu. |
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390ish |
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i went to a show about a month ago. wanted a tula 91/30 after getting a crappy ishv from aim. he only had one tula. everything in his stand was $85.00, except
for the refinished tula. he had sanded out all the acceptance marks and refinished the stock. wanted $135 for it . i passed. disappointing.
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mosinsniper |
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I like the marks. even If I did refinish one for what ever reason, I wouldn't sand it so much to remove the marks and I have seen some stocks that look
like they used it for acceptance mark practice lol.
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NC Cruffler |
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Patiently waiting for Eb to kill this thread...
Dave
Dave Green, NRA Life Member since 1973
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eb in oregon |
I was going to keep my nose out of this, however..... | ||
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Pahtu said
It is worth the sum of it's parts all said and done. I am close to completing two restored MN's & will post them this Summer - They came out nice, but are not worth as much as original condition MN'sThis is true for some people, some collectors. As debated in many other threads, the issue appears to be the value set by the buyer and the seller and their individual interpratation of "history." I do though find the statement "are not worth as much as original condition MN's" interesting as "original" M/N's (and actually there are very, very few original M/N's as they have pretty much all been "refurbished" by Soviet Armories in years gone past) can be had for around $80.00 or less. So what I'm hearing here is that if I receive a M/N that IS pretty well trashed, with no finish, and I spend time lovenly restoring it's finish (doing it the smart way and not sanding off any arsenal stamps) it's worth less than $80.00? I don't think so. This puts me at odds with others as I have had to "restore" more than one rifle that I've purchased. That's the problem with online auctions and purchases, you take a chance on somebody elses pictures and discription of an item only to discover that they are misearble photographers, or very crafty photographers, or don't know squat about the piece. Me? I hate loosing money, which includes sending something back and having "to eat the shipping" both ways. I'll do my darndest to return the rifle, pistol, or what have you to servicable condition, using the least intrusive methods at my command, and to leave what "is original" as original. If this lessens the value to some, so be it. There is somebody out there willing to pay my price for a servicable, correct (as possible) firearm and I'm willing to wait. Some day finding an Arisaka or a Carcano in excellent, as issued condition is going to be hard to do, then they have to come to me. Muhahh, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776 |
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Pahtu |
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"I spend time lovenly restoring it's finish (doing it the smart way and not sanding off any arsenal stamps) it's worth less than $80.00? I
don't think so."
And quality time well spent! As I have enjoyed bringing back a few of Bubba's home projects However, if it is the money in my wallet, I will not be spending it on someone's restored rifle - I will be spending it on a unique rifle to add to my collection. To answer the original question. "does restoration hurt the value?" Yes to collectors of rifles who appreciate rifles that have not been altered by non military people No to collectors of rifles who don't know any better and just want pretty shooters Pahtu. |
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eb in oregon |
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(just grin and nod Eric, just grin and nod.)
"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776 |
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mosinsniper |
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This brings me again to the original question because I was surfing around and found one on a custom stock that had been painted and front sight changed and
the only way you could tell it was a mosin was the bolt knob on the back. I thing most collectors will say just leave them alone. Thats why I asked because the
ones I see at gun shows seem less and less original. It's starting to be that to get an original unaltered one it just has to come direct from the
importer.
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Pahtu |
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"It's starting to be that to get an original unaltered one it just has to come direct from the importer."
True, the rifles will most likely not be messed with from the wholesaler/importer. Once you get a few collecting miles under your belt, one can quickly recognize a restored rifle. As inexpensive as they are, I see few M44's, 91-30's and M38's at shows and when I do, they are just about all refurbs, I expect to see a bunch of the more common MN's for sale, but rarely do I see em - I have seen quite a few MN's over the years that have been refinished/modified - Some well done, most really poorly done - No room in the gunsafe for those... Pahtu. |
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trautert |
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You guys didn't see Eb's stop sign?
Tom
Ne Desit Virtus
Rakkasans |
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Ken Shabby |
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I'm going to take a bit of a hard line on the definition of "restoration" and "original".
As I see it, "restoration" as pertains to firearms collectors is closer to the furniture collector's definition than the car collector's definition. Furniture collectors usually seem take a dim view of refinishing a piece or replacing major damage/alterations -it usually hurts value. Car collectors, on the other hand, want the car to look and drive like it did when it was new - a frame-off restoration (where everything is refurbished or replaced to "like-new") is the desired condition. For me, "original" or "correct" as it pertains to firearms is, simply put, the state that a firearm was in while in service or military ownership. That could mean either a) the way it left the factory, b) the state it was in when issued and used, or c) the state it was in when surplussed off to an exporter. All three conditions represent the weapon's use in military service. A is usually much rarer and more valuable than B or C, but all three could be called original or correct since they represent the weapon as a military firearm. Collectors may also take an even harder line and define "correct" solely as a weapon that has never undergone arsenal repair or refurbishment. A "restoration" would be a rifle that has been returned to "original" or "correct" condition after having been irreversibly altered. It would be largely functionally and visually identical to an original, but not itself original - the finish and some parts may be modern facsimiles of original finishes and parts. For me, doing a restoration on a "bubba" modified rifle is fine and even laudable - as long as the weapon is always properly represented as non-original. *It will still be worth less* than an original example, but it is at least correct in appearance and function, making for a good shooter, project or display piece. Another scenario where restoration is appropriate is when a weapon is legally restricted or so rare that replacement parts may simply not exist and must be fabricated, or are not legally available. In that case, the restoration itself (if properly done) may become the best possible representation of an original piece. This is a case where the restoration may actually *increase* the value - one common example would be imported machine gun "parts sets". When assembled in to working guns with modern semi-auto receivers they are technically restorations, but since original receivers are unobtainable, the restoration is nearly as close to the original as you can ever get (barring the few transferable guns out there). Sometimes, doing a restoration may be a bad idea. One example of this situation would be a Mosin-Nagant modified by Bannerman's. These might look like they are sporters, and they are - BUT Bannerman's sporters are historically significant and collectible in their own right, and should be classed as "originals". Returning these rifles to as-issued Russian condition would be a mistake - many (most/all?) of these rifles were never issued in Russia anyway. So, in short, the answer to the original poster's question is "it depends". I don't like to modify my rifles in any way - I even keep the flaky shellac finish as-is on my Mosins. I put a no gunsmithing scope mount on my Yugo M48, and swapped out the original battle sight on my No. 4 Mk 1 with an original Jungle Carbine micrometer sight. That's the extent of the changes I would make. Both are totally reversible, and in both cases the changes were made at the beginning of my collecting career - nowdays I might not do even those modifications. Other than those, the only changes I will make would be the replacement of broken or missing parts with correct original parts. For me, an original condition rifle is the only kind I'm interested in collecting. I might be willing to buy a "bubba" sporter as a project gun, in order to restore it for use as a shooter, but I would only buy it at a big discount. "Bubba" rifles are only good for parts or project guns, so unless it's an exceptionally rare type of gun, they aren't worth much to me. The biggest issue with "restorations" are when they are represented as originals by unscrupulous people. At this point they are no longer restorations but fakes, and they are the collector's bane.
Last Edited By: Ken Shabby
03/29/09 06:03 PM.
Edited 3 times.
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eb in oregon |
edited 03/30/09 | ||
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Well said Ken, we may have several disagreements regarding value, but on the whole "you sir, are correct!"
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/31919?page=2 Eric
"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776
Last Edited By: eb in oregon
03/30/09 07:35 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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zeebill |
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Frequenting gun shows will teach you something most "restorers" can't quite fathom and that is guns make rounds between dealers at shows and
often dealers will sell each other pieces that they just haven't had any luck moving. With each change of dealer or owner the rifle loses it's original
ID a little more and fast becomes something it isn't and becomes more and more original and not a copy crafted by someone who no longer cares how it is
portrayed or presented. How many times have you heard someone swear up and down they would never sell it saying they just built it for their own enjoyment and
even if they died their wife knows what it is and would never misrepresent it in anyway. 6 months after that you never hear from them again because they have a
new hobby now building model race-cars and somewhere down the line they sell off their creations to now underwrite their new obsession or as they call it
hobby. They could care less how they are now portrayed or represented!
This is one of the major reasons I occasionally have a hissy fit at some one who is making a fake sniper or the latest Century copy or R-Guns copy of a sniper Because I realize that somewhere down the line a beginning collector will likely get bit by your creation that could never cause a problem in your eyes. You don't know how much it hurts to tell some bright and bushy tailed new collector, sorry you just paid a $1000 plus for a fake or as you guys sometimes call them "restored" copy. I don't give a dang how much you make them look like your creation someone can easily redo your copy to look real and someone will bite and buy. The sad part is the beginning collector is usually the one that bites. Great way to start collecting huh? Restore away and call it what you want but remember the above and maybe you'll see why I really appreciate people who leave things the way they are or should be. Makes things really easy for all of us who do! Bill
Last Edited By: zeebill
03/29/09 11:21 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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Electron Don |
Restoration? | ||
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$550? What is this, Mitchell's Mosins?
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Ken Shabby |
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I agree with zeebill in the sense that a restoration always risks being represented as genuine by an ignorant or unscrupulous seller. YOU may be honest about
it but the next guy may not. It is one of the risks of collecting. Bubba rifles may be more or less easy to spot, but a restoration is designed to be hard to
spot (whether your intentions were good or bad). We can't make the bubbas and fakers go away though, so the best defence is always going to be "know
what you're looking at". I never take a seller at his word. I only listen to what the gun tells me under examination.
A Mitchell's M48A was my first milsurp, and I learned a lot from that purchase. Despite having overpaid, I did at least get a genuine milsurp rifle in (arguably) its original condition, which is more that one could say for a $550 reblued, sanded Mosin. I'm happy with it. But if I could do it all over again I would have passed on Mitchell's, not because of the rifle itself or even necessarily the price, but because they misrepresent what they are selling and I consider it very sloppy at best and dishonest at worst. That M48A was the only milsurp I didn't really research before buying, and it will remain the last rifle I buy without researching.
Last Edited By: Ken Shabby
03/30/09 12:40 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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stantheman1986 |
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The ONLY time I have seen a rifle or hand gun not have it's value hurt too much by refinishing or "restoration" is when it's something so
rare that a collector will pay lots of $ just to have any example of it.
Common rifles? I hate "restoration" but if you want a cheap shooter, my local gun shop has plenty of chopped, reblued sloppily sporterized Mosins, Enfields and Mausers on the racks for $50. Destroyed as collector guns, useful as truck guns or just something to blast surplus ammo through to save wear and tear on a collector grade rifle. |
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