[Surplus Rifle.Com's New Article:]
Slug, Measure, & Match: Using the Right Bullet for the Right Barrel Diameter
By Mark Trope & R. Ted Jeo
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Tenring36 |
Need Help in Loading for an Ishy 2A |
Lead | |
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I'm in the process of buying an Ishy 2A rifle. I know this has been discussed before, but I can't find the thread. What is the difference, if any,
between the 7.62 military (NATO) cartridge and the commercial .308 round? I handload, so can I use commercial (Rem, Win) .308 brass? Is there anything special
I should know about bullet choice? Finally, can I use the load data for the .308 found in reloading manuals in the 2A? TIA for any info.
Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for .... Will Rogers
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jwr747 |
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lots written bout blowing yourself up using commercial .308 ammo in the 2A. in theory the .308 CAN cause higher pressures than the 7.62X51 military round.
don't know of any commercial ammo that is made at the top end of pressure ratings. stay on the low to middle range on hand loads and shoot for lots of
years. jwr
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doug henry |
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My Isapore rifles do very well with .308" 150gr SP and 147gr FMJ with mid range powder charges for around 2500 FPS I prefer the lighter recoil.
I'm sure they will easily handle larger charges. I reload with Lee .308 full length sizing die set. |
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Skeyed |
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I have loaded oodles of rounds using 308 remchester brass.like was said, don't go over mid range loads.
I have loaded seven times with "starting" loads before having to full length re size. I did fire 5 rounds of factory 308, a complete down right no-no, with my 2A1 gibbs. So I never did or never will use 308 commercial loads in my un molested 2A1. The gibbs is still ok but I had to scrap the cases after the first firing. ( Do not) try commercial ammo in a 2A1 (un less) it is managed recoil, you can fire that all day long. If you can pay for/or find the ammo. ![]()
Been there, done that. ![]() skd
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Tenring36 |
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Thanks for the help, guys. My most accurate load for my Ruger .308 rifle is a 168 gr HPBT match bullet over 41.5 gr of 4064. I have quite a few 150 gr bullets
in .308 so I think I'll try those with powder charges in the low to mid range as suggested.
Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for .... Will Rogers
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akitaholic |
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I think the biggest difference is that the commercial chamber is at the tight end of the tolerance spectrum and the military is more generous, to allow for
less than sparkling cleanliness under combat conditions. Any brass should do, as others have said. .300 Savage load data would have very safe pressures while
not giving up much in performance.
'holic |
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Skeyed |
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Tenring36,
The main difference between the two that anyone is really sure of , which we should be concerned with, is the thickness of the case wall, compared to which chamber, with what load it is used. Yes, the chamber difference. But remember, the case thickness and the different result is less capacity for the nato case. Also, I am against any substitute from another cal. The loading manual,s warn strongly against it. Notice, in the 2nd Edition of the Lee. Starting for the 300 S is IMR 4895, 35.7grins. for 308, 42.1 grains. a 7+ grain difference If you under load, it can be just as bad as over loads.. A tight bore with a slightly fatter bullet, and the bullet doesn't exit the barrel, Nothing appears to be wrong and you fire the next round. You do the math. I would never recommend to a new comer to use substitute data. don't mean to dis spute any others suggestions. Just how I was taught from this forum and others. And the loading Manuals. Leave that stuff to the pros. good luck and happy shooting. skd
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akitaholic |
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Skeyed, caution is not a bad thing. In this case there is no danger. The Savage is the parent of the .308 and has nearly as much case capacity. The reason for
the lower charges is that the Savage has a lower working pressure than either the .308 or the 7.62, something like 44K CUP versus 50K. Extruded powders can
stand reduced charges pretty well. Hodgdon says up to 25% with 4895. Ball powders are a different story.
'holic |
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dutchmills |
Uh-Oh | ||
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I was'nt aware of any problems with the Ishy 2 A, where can I go to read about these "blow ups" Thanks, DM
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nothernug |
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Probably find a lot about it on the Lee/Enfield forum on this site... http://milsurpshooter.net/forums/70
Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie until you can find a rock. Will Rogers |
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Skeyed |
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dutchmills, I have not found any info on "blow-ups".
I can say this. The regular Remington factory loads of 308 I fired in my Gibbs. The fired cases would not go into the sizing die. On the other hand, the Remington Managed recoil cases were neck sized several, 6 to 7 times with starting loads with no signs of anything except growing too long. Full length sized and have fired some of those 3 to 4 times and not through with this batch of cases yet. I have not tried any of my Lake City brass with any never exceed loads yet, don't know that I will. I do not have cause for max loads ( from the manuals) of any kind in any of my rifles. I only have one other rifle I don't fire factory ammo in. it is the LSA #1 mk111* that some one messed up the chamber trying to make an improved chamber. ![]() skd
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dutchmills |
Blow ups | ||
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I could'nt find anything on blow ups either Sked, I have fired several hundred rounds of German mil .308 ( i think east german?) with no ill effects.
Acurracy was pretty good. (all of this in an Ishy 2a) I need to dig out my re-loads and see what I loaded with to make sure i'm safe. I have been aware of
the difference in commercial/military brass for many years now and load accordingly. But I still want to check now!
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Skeyed |
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I think it has been posted on this forum, and there is some record that there was some trouble with the (#1 MK111) that was modified to take the NATO 7.62.
That said, the "2A1" was and is a "new&different" receiver on it's own. If my chamber was tighter I would not hesitate to fire
factory 308 in it. I did not have any backed out primers or case separation, Just such swelling that the cases could not be re sized. I get good accuracy on
starting loads from several different powders. That is why I don't think I need any max loads. get up to 7 or 8 loadings before full length sizing and I
don't know how many from there. Why waste powder and and cases. That is three of the main reasons to hand load. accuracy, less powder, fewer
cases and that gives me more savings to buy another "rifle". ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() skd
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dutchmills |
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Right you are!!!! DM
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shotout |
Update for me | ||
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I know this is an old post, and this thing has been kicked around to death. But, I have been doing some more reading.
Found out I was overlooking a major factor. It was there all the time and I just didn't pay it much attention. The difference in the cases and the load have been discussed at length. I paid a lot of attention to that. What I did not pay attention to was the fact of the difference not only in chamber dia. size, but also in length. One source I read said a 308 is a 308 and a 7.62 is a 7.62 and one should not be used for the other. I do full length re size once fired 308 from my NEF and load light loads for my 2A1's. I do use 308 factory managed recoil loads in my 2A1's, but not full regular factory loads. have fun ![]() shotout aka skeyed.
P.S. Still haven't found any thing on 2A1's blowing up
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eb in oregon |
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I have posted on this before and others disagree. Their right. However the differences are this;
Military brass is slightly harder than commercial brass. A "must" as military ammo is subject to rough handling. Military brass is slightly thicker, not because of the charge, but again to help resist deformation as a result of rough handling. This difference will result in different chamber pressures as a result of a SLIGHTLY reduced case capacity. The differences in case dimension when one refers to FACTORY drawings? There isn't a nickles worth of difference. In fact they are essentially identical in dimension. My opinion, but when somebody starts worrying about .002/.003 in a drawings dimension they should get another hobby as the manufacturing tolerances ranges of bullets and chambers are usually greater than this. Already mentioned, but military chambers are more generous. Matter of dirt and carbon in battle and reliable functioning. It may be worth it to mention that machine guns use the same ball ammo as rifles and their chambers are even bigger yet, and they don't split cases except on occassion. There has been semi-auto rifles that I know of ruined in the past from the use of commercial ammo. However these rifles were found to have been firing commercial ammo of a MUCH heavier weight than what the rifles were designed for. When one compares commercial ammo to military ammo, of the same weight, one will find that the pressures aren't all that far different, and the differences are usually well within the pressure range of the "blue pills" that each and every rifle fires when originally manufactured. As a matter of safety all rifles are designed to handle a greater pressure than it will generally fire. I have no problem firing commercial ammo in any of the rifles I own and I don't think any one else will if one stays in the same bullet weight range. Always lighter, but NEVER heavier. Especially with semi-auto rifles. The only reason that a commercial case may be harder to re-size after being fired in a military chamber is that it's case walls being slightly thinner, it will "spring" to a slightly larger size. However I have fired commercial cases in both bolt action and semi-auto rifles (reloads to be sure, about 10% under the military loading) and still reloaded them 5 to 6 times for sure, maybe more for some. You do what you gotta do. My 2 cents. eb
"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Benjamin Franklin, July 4 1776 |
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