a quick question on free floating a 91/30 in Mosin Nagant Forum Forum

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a quick question on free floating a 91/30

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felix mophandle	a quick question on free floating a 91/30	Lead	[-]
Posts: 41 Oct 13 11 6:13 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None did a little reading on free floating the barrel , the dollar bill passing under the barrel in the channel.....my question is, what is supposed to happen at the nose cap? i have seen some posts where guys cork under it and other posts where guys cork the handgaurd to apply down pressure,i'm pretty sure my m-39 barely if at all touches.
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Pahtu		#1	[-]
Posts: 2744 Oct 13 11 6:53 PM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Try brass shims where the action screws into the stock - The Finns and Soviets did so - It may be worth a shot.....pardon the pun..... The front handguard band may put too much resistance for a bill to pass under the stock.... Pahtu.
shotout		#2	[-]
Posts: 722 Oct 13 11 8:37 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I use used dryer sheets folded to the desired thickness. Use the whole sheet if needed. Once compressed they become un-spungy.They worked fine on my 91/59. shotout
felix mophandle		#3	[-]
Posts: 41 Oct 14 11 12:40 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	i shimmed the action with brass shim stock and the there is a dollars worth of clearance along the barrel. (had to shim the rear of the trigger gaurd also) the only contact point now is the nosecap. is this right or should there be some clearance.
Pahtu		#4	[-]
Posts: 2744 Oct 14 11 7:30 AM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	One needs to test fire the piece - Only then can you tell if other things need be done to assist accuracy. Pahtu.
felix mophandle		#5	[-]
Posts: 41 Oct 14 11 3:48 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	i'm going to the range sunday morning to see if my free float job tightened up my groups. also found some norma ammo at the local flea market and some privi 182 grn stuff at the local gunshop. this gives me a total of5 different ammos to print. (i'm used to my 96 and my 39 which can outshoot me)
NotPC		#6	[-]
Posts: 5933 Oct 15 11 12:44 AM Host Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Sometimes contact against the barrel at a forward point helps and sometimes it hurts. Depends on your barrel harmonics (vibrations). Many nosecaps do not touch the barrel. It is trial and error, unfortunately. Try shooting it with the nosecap touching and then try shooting with it removed. Try to perform both tests woth equivalent barrel temperatures. Best wishes for good luck! Last Edited By: NotPC Oct 15 11 12:47 AM. Edited 1 times.
zeebill		#7	[-]
Posts: 4643 Oct 15 11 7:53 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	First off lets establish one thing. These are battle rifles not purpose made marksmanship rifles. They are not made all the same and as NotPC mentions each rifle is different. I have never corked or shimmed barrels much because I find most of these rifles shoot as well as I can see in almost original form from the surplus dealer I bought them from. Just the basic design of the 91/30 with a tight front spring type of band should tell you it is not made to float the barrel when they put a tight spring on there on the muzzle end. If you want to get into sporterizing the rifle the topics don't belong here if you read the rules above. I get a great kick out how many of us make modifications to these military surplus battle rifles and think we have the answer for making it better. The key to my amusement is found in what notPC said about each one being different! What works on one is far from right on others. These were being pounded out during the great patriotic war in Russia in the first place and they just wanted numbers not overall quality. They were trying to survive as a nation not being perfect in quality control was never a component of that. If they shot the enemy they were just what the Doctor ordered. That being said if you want to make changes go right ahead it is your rifle as many before me have said but we really only want to hear how you care for them and find them and collect them from different places. If you just search the archives here and other forums you will more than likely find that answers to most of your questions just as many of us did years ago. Patience and plenty of time reading and researching answer most of the questions asked here day after day you will find. Experiment with your rifle and enjoy it at the range and you will find the answers for you just as most of us do. Good Luck and Happy Collecting and Shooting in the future. Bill
felix mophandle		#8	[-]
Posts: 41 Oct 16 11 3:48 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	i am of the opinion, maybe wrongly, that shooting these rifles is a large part of milsurp collecting. making a small reversable modification that would have been done by a russian armourer,ie adding shims under the receiver,to enhance accuracy of a minute of man rifle should be an acceptable and HISTORICAL subject. (we're not talking about grinding off the rear sight and installing a red dot scope here) i never thought to search the threads before posting, i,ll start using it more. back to the original subject, i went to the range today and the same rifle shooting the same surplus ammo now groups better than it did two weeks ago, not a target rifle by an means,but i,ll take a 3.5"group over the 4 3/4" to 5" it shot before i shimmed the action. it really liked the norma light ball softpoints, but , i'm cheap and only fired 10 rnds
Ed Novak		#9	[-]
Posts: 4319 Oct 16 11 6:23 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	felix mophandle wrote: i am of the opinion, maybe wrongly, that shooting these rifles is a large part of milsurp collecting. making a small reversable modification that would have been done by a russian armourer,ie adding shims under the receiver,to enhance accuracy of a minute of man rifle should be an acceptable and HISTORICAL subject. (we're not talking about grinding off the rear sight and installing a red dot scope here) i never thought to search the threads before posting, i,ll start using it more. back to the original subject, i went to the range today and the same rifle shooting the same surplus ammo now groups better than it did two weeks ago, not a target rifle by an means,but i,ll take a 3.5"group over the 4 3/4" to 5" it shot before i shimmed the action. it really liked the norma light ball softpoints, but , i'm cheap and only fired 10 rnds You are not wrong in your opinion about small reversible changes. I believe that the point of Bill's post was that too many people buy, for example, a $179 M91/30 package and expect it to shoot as well as, say a newly made modern rifle and if it does not, then many begin to somehow modify their rifles to achieve the results - relieving wood, adding cork, etc. I think that the point of this is that most military rifles came out of the arsenal with an ability to shoot a few (5?) into a 3" group at 100yds/meters and that was good enough for the average battle rifle (it was the standard for the No.4 and for the M91/30, I believe). I think that none of us 'collectors' refutes the ability of some of these rifles to shoot much better groups; sometimes with a better/luckier choice of ammunition and sometimes with some minor modifications to the bedding. I think that some of us 'old timers' have 'been there, done that' and are a bit jaded about tinkering and fussing with these old rifles in attempts to make them 'target rifles' and we are just happy that the damned old things go 'bang' and put some bullets somewhere near where we intended and we are not terribly impressed by this or that temporary modification because with the next batch of milsurp ammo, the results will be all hell and gone. Now, modifications and consistent hand-loading of ammunition may be a whole nother thing. Until the humidity changes. ed NRA Endowment member LECS #2 Air Force Association Life Member MOAA Member
zeebill		#10	[-]
Posts: 4643 Oct 16 11 10:34 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Well spoken Ed! Felix don't feel picked on or guilty of not looking at the search functions as many of us do the same thing daily. One point is taken from what you said and sticks out in my mind. Regardless of whether you make changes or just keep firing the same ammo or different I think all of us get better as we shoot the same rifle time after time. We may not admit it or even realize it but we get more comfortable with it in shooting it more often. I generally only shoot Bulgarian Light Ball because I bought a bundle of it. I had a well traveled M39 on a New England Westinghouse receiver I just traded away awhile ago and the bore looked horrid and the post war stocked doweled and repaired. It was ugly frankly but when I took it to the range to clean it and fire it some I took a real liking to it and as I hot cleaned it and shot it the bore became more like a moonscape. But you know what my groups got tighter and tighter till I was having so much fun I thought heck I am not selling this one. I put close to 250 rounds through that thing cleaning with Kroil Oil while it was hot multiple times. I took it home and finished cleaning it and oiled the bore for storage. Know what? the next day I was back at the range shooting other rifles and cleaning them. The M39 was with me and when I was done shooting and cleaning the other ones out it came again. The old battle rifle had a hard to look at stock, a poor pitted bore, and a Westinghouse receiver with a post war stock but I just could not put it away! I will not lie and say I was getting 1 inch groups at 100 yards but they were consistently sized and grouped and the rifle was so predictable and fun to shoot I just couldn't put the darn thing down. I brought it to a gun show one time and a guy I know wanted an M39. It was under the table and when I brought it out to show him we soon worked out a deal for a trade. I hated to see that rifle go as it was just fun and reliable to shoot. You need to buy more ammo and shoot more with one rifle for awhile and you will be very surprised just how good you can get with one kind of ammo and practice. It's kind of like one easy chair which may be kind of broken up a bit you get to like it and know what to expect and just feel more comfortable while you in it. Loosen up on the ammo budget and you too will know shoulder pain the next day and learn to even enjoy that too. Good Luck and Good Shooting! Bill
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zeebill		#11	[-]
Posts: 4643 Oct 16 11 10:35 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Well spoken Ed! Felix don't feel picked on or guilty of not looking at the search functions as many of us do the same thing daily. One point is taken from what you said and sticks out in my mind. Regardless of whether you make changes or just keep firing the same ammo or different I think all of us get better as we shoot the same rifle time after time. We may not admit it or even realize it but we get more comfortable with it in shooting it more often. I generally only shoot Bulgarian Light Ball because I bought a bundle of it. I had a well traveled M39 on a New England Westinghouse receiver I just traded away awhile ago and the bore looked horrid and the post war stocked doweled and repaired. It was ugly frankly but when I took it to the range to clean it and fire it some I took a real liking to it and as I hot cleaned it and shot it the bore became more like a moonscape. But you know what my groups got tighter and tighter till I was having so much fun I thought heck I am not selling this one. I put close to 250 rounds through that thing cleaning with Kroil Oil while it was hot multiple times. I took it home and finished cleaning it and oiled the bore for storage. Know what? the next day I was back at the range shooting other rifles and cleaning them. The M39 was with me and when I was done shooting and cleaning the other ones out it came again. The old battle rifle had a hard to look at stock, a poor pitted bore, and a Westinghouse receiver with a post war stock but I just could not put it away! I will not lie and say I was getting 1 inch groups at 100 yards but they were consistently sized and grouped and the rifle was so predictable and fun to shoot I just couldn't put the darn thing down. I brought it to a gun show one time and a guy I know wanted an M39. It was under the table and when I brought it out to show him we soon worked out a deal for a trade. I hated to see that rifle go as it was just fun and reliable to shoot. You need to buy more ammo and shoot more with one rifle for awhile and you will be very surprised just how good you can get with one kind of ammo and practice. It's kind of like one easy chair which may be kind of broken up a bit you get to like it and know what to expect and just feel more comfortable while you in it. Loosen up on the ammo budget and you too will know shoulder pain the next day and learn to even enjoy that too. Good Luck and Good Shooting! Bill PS I have used shims many moons ago and have no trouble with that.
Inky7		#12	[-]
Posts: 114 Oct 22 11 10:04 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Each of my mosins is unique in what it likes .... I tried shimming one of my M91/30s and it opened up the groups..... it shoots quite nicely with the action screws torqued down as tight as I can make them and the barrel jammed down tight into the barrel channel touching wood most the length.... go figure....
zeebill		#13	[-]
Posts: 4643 Oct 23 11 8:45 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Inky7 wrote: Each of my mosins is unique in what it likes .... I tried shimming one of my M91/30s and it opened up the groups..... it shoots quite nicely with the action screws torqued down as tight as I can make them and the barrel jammed down tight into the barrel channel touching wood most the length.... go figure.... Inky brings out a great point! These rifles vary so much in everything that has tolerances on it they are just that individuals. The right fix for me may not work at all for you. It gets very frustrating till you realize this point. Bill
Carl Gustav		#14	[-]
Posts: 4256 Oct 23 11 7:46 PM Forum Site Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	There's a bit of irony in a country like the USSR having produced so many rifles of the same design with "individuality". Carl
lemming		#15	[-]
Posts: 9 Nov 8 11 5:05 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Absolutely true that Mosins (and Lee-Enfields and 98k's and all) were churned out in vast quantities in times of emergency, when quantity mattered far more than quality. The thing of it is, though, that these mass-produced, hurriedly-made rifles can (and do) shoot really, really well. I've shot witnessed 1" groups at 100 yards off the bench with my Mosin (unmodified except for a Mojo sight) and I regularly shoot in competitions at 600 yards with my No4 Mk1 (bedded barrel, match aperture sight, otherwise as issued) where better marksman than me using the same rifles hit the middle so often it's really boring to watch. Generally speaking, the moral seems to be that - provided the bore's not shot out and the rifle's not been mangled by a previous owner - good-condition pre 1945 military rifles can, and do, hold their own with the very best on the target range. The crucial thing, I believe, is the sights. Lee Enfield owners are lucky because (a) very high quality match sights that fit on to the rifle without gunsmithing have always been available, right from when the gun was first issued (b) the LE action allows for such sights to be fitted. Even a tackdriver won't perform well for you if you've got to use crude sights and Kentucky windage. That said; take a look at the quality of machining on an old rifle sometime. Examine the action of a Swedish Mauser, a P14 or P17, or even a Mosin Nagant. Then ask yourself how much you'd have to pay nowadays for a rifle with that level of precision machining, always assuming you could find a craftsman capable of doing work to that high a standard. They did it that way because they had no choice - no CNC, no injection moulding, just lathes and milling machines - and labour was cheap, and rather more skilled than it is today. It's a cliche, but it's true. They don't make 'em like that any more.
high speed cruise		#16	[-]
Posts: 4069 Nov 8 11 11:24 PM Veteran member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Is my practice of gold plating all of my milsurps "sporterizin?" LoL. If you want to shim your rifles and cut down on vertical stringing, I say go for it! It isn't changing anything, no more than replacing the rear sight with the scope mounts designed by the site founder (didn't Bill design those?) Anyway....show us some targets as you go and label accordingly. Good luck!
grayoldwolf		#17	[-]
Posts: 68 Nov 9 11 11:03 AM active member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Ed Novak wrote: I think that some of us 'old timers' have 'been there, done that' and are a bit jaded about tinkering and fussing with these old rifles in attempts to make them 'target rifles' and we are just happy that the damned old things go 'bang' and put some bullets somewhere near where we intended and we are not terribly impressed by this or that temporary modification because with the next batch of milsurp ammo, the results will be all hell and gone. Now, modifications and consistent hand-loading of ammunition may be a whole nother thing. Until the humidity changes. ed Well said Ed. I do believe I am an "old timer" in this regard. Where has the time gone? Thanks, GOW
truckjohn		#18	[-]
Posts: 58 Apr 21 12 8:04 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Yep... On fiddling around with shims.. My first thing was to pull the barrel bands and front handguard off... Tighten down the action screws and see which direction the barrel goes.... If it goes up or sideways - my own experience is that you likely will need shims... I like to add shims (Usually just pieces of business card or card stock) until the barrel is lightly pushing straight down into the end of the stock, and a dollar bill can be slid through, but there's obvious pressure... This includes shimming under the front tang area so that the receiver is not torqued in too tight and in the back so the barrel doesn't pull "Up" out of the stock... I think this is more or less what the Finn's did....
truckjohn		#19	[-]
Posts: 58 May 1 12 9:39 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	As I read through the entire post again... something occurred to me that happened last time I was out shooting... I was shooting through some cast reloads through one of my Mosins (Lyman 314299 gas checked over something in the vicinity of 16 grains of 2400 powder)... It was getting dark, and I was starting to have trouble seeing the target all the way out there.... Grumble grumble says I.. I'm probably not even hitting the target paper at all.... I better walk down and check to see what's going on.... I get down to the 100 yard line and find.. much to my amazement... that as the target got harder and harder to see - my groups tightened up.... I was forced to actually focus on only the front sight, and concentrate on the fundamentals (Sight Alignment, breathing, trigger pull).... The groups went from around 3" to 2" and then to 1.5" and hovered around there.... with the 91/30's issue iron sights... Now.. This surprised me - as I probably haven't ever shot a 1.5" group at 100 yards with iron sights before.... even on my best day out... So here we are... talking about adjusting this and shimming that... but in my case at least - it wasn't the rifle that was the problem that was causing the large groups.... and I think that's what Bill is talking about... Thanks Last Edited By: truckjohn May 7 12 8:01 PM. Edited 1 times.
Ltcboy		#20	[-]
Posts: 7 May 5 12 8:22 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I have a SOG sniper. I took it out for the first time and the grouping were all over. I read about all of the things people have done to accurize the Mosin and I wanted to stay traditional, just like they did in the Great War. I actually was able to find Yur'yev's book and see the illustrations as to how to go about this with out altering the weapon permanatly. I did free float the barrel by taking an 11mm deep socket and lightly sanded out the channel. I did shim the receiver and all the points of contact, including the receiver screws. I really think that alone helped out a lot because they are a lot tighter. I replaced the sear spring with an original Finnish sear spring, and I shimmed it up a little. I installed a small slack spring, this really got rid of thetrigger play. At the end of the barrel, I did place a small piece of cork under the tip of the stock. I did not use the oiled felt wrap on the barrel like other have done in the past. All I can say is that doing all of this really improved my groupings. I was very happy with them. I purposely did not install the sling under the barrel. I read that this causes the groups to open up. I left the sling off. Here are my results, http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ltcboy/147Grn%20Bulgarian%20100yrds%2004272012/?albumview=slideshow
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